Computer History Wiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Chaosnet

2022-12-31T16:30:31Z

Bv: /* Links on appropriate pages? */

==CH10 on a KL10==

I'm pretty sure that the MC KL10 was attached to the CHAOSNet via the I/O -11; there was never a PDP-10 I/O bus CHAOSNet interface on it. (Not that one couldn't have been done, of course.) [[User:Jnc|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc|talk]]) 10:06, 24 August 2021 (CEST)

: That is consistent with archived source code. AI and MC both had an IO-11 front end; AI's through the Rubin 10-11 interface, MC's through DL10. Only ML had an IO bus device called CH10. DM had no Chaosnet. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff|talk]]) 11:17, 27 October 2021 (CEST)

: The article page says "SIMH's KA10 and KL10 simulates a CH10", but this is only for emulation, and mostly because there is no DL10 support in the emulator [[User:Larsbrinkhoff|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff|talk]]) 11:20, 27 October 2021 (CEST)

== Spelling ==

The current spelling (variations are mostly a case of what to capitalize) is 'Chaosnet', per [http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/mit/ai/AIM-628_chaosnet.pdf AIM-628], the formal, published documentation. Although now that I look, most original documents seem to use the same. [[User:Jnc|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc|talk]]) 13:36, 27 April 2022 (CEST)

== VAX/VMS ==

I found Symbolics' implementation of Chaosnet for VAX/VMS on MIT tapes. It's unclear whether MIT and/or Symbolics DKI would allow this software to be released publicly. I'm trying.
Meanwhile, here's an installation guide: https://usermanual.wiki/Document/998035SymbolicsVAXVMSChaosnetInstalltionRel6May85.4170387717.pdf
[[User:Larsbrinkhoff|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff|talk]]) 09:35, 22 August 2022 (CEST)

: Well, since Symbolics is the owner (which is to say, they wrote it - i.e. someone employed by Symbolics did, not someone associated with MIT), why does MIT come into it? Because it was on their tapes? (Which tapes were these, BTW? Dumps from an MIT VMS system? I ask because there is missing software from the DSSR/RTS Unix system, but Steve Ward didn't think they had any backup tapes - but DSSR/RTS had a VMS, so maybe there are still DSSR/RTS tapes...) If you're having any hassle from MIT, let me know if I can deploy Jerry Saltzer or Dave Clark to help.
: Is there any evidence of Symbolics' policy at the time regarding this source- i.e. was it made freely available to anyone who asked for it? If so, maybe you won't have to get a new approval from Symbolics DKI.
: Pity it's not the Unix Chaosnet! Who wrote that, BTW? [[User:Jnc|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc|talk]]) 12:53, 22 August 2022 (CEST)

== "Emulated" Chaosnet? ==

What is this intended to mean? It's just about encapsulation, right? It's still Chaosnet, I would argue?
--[[User:Bv|Bv]] ([[User talk:Bv|talk]]) 18:59, 30 December 2022 (CET)

: I don't recall where that word was used, so I can't hazard a guess as to why it was used (or if it was appropriate in that usage); I'll look for it. [[User:Jnc|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc|talk]]) 02:14, 31 December 2022 (CET)
: I'm not ''certain'' of why I used 'emulated'; I ''can'' pretty much guarantee I didn't think hard about it!
: I think I was probably in part influenced by all the other work going on to emulate other historic computing systems; since I doubt anyone's doing production work over this one, it just seemed right to call it an emulation too.
: Also, I always experienced Chaos running directly on WAN's (I might have been the person who got a protocol number assigned for it in IP - most of the Chaos hackers didn't have much use for anything to do with TCP/IP, which was the competitor to Chaos inside MIT); so, to me, Chaos running over the Internet is truly 'emulated'.
: But I can see the case for saying it's not emulated; I'd be OK with changing it. 03:38, 31 December 2022 (CET)
:: OK, I rephrased it a little - see if it's OK. --[[User:Bv|Bv]] ([[User talk:Bv|talk]]) 12:23, 31 December 2022 (CET)

== Long-haul WAN links ==

Do the original implementations work OK over long-haul WANs? ISTR that they used fixed timeouts. Oh, now that I think about it, Symbolics had some intra-company WAN links, so they must have gotten it to work on them. I wonder what encapsulation they used on them; [[PPP]] didn't exist yet. I wonder if [[MINITS]] was used; if so, we could look at the source (which we now have), and see how they did it. I guess I could look. [[User:Jnc|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc|talk]]) 02:14, 31 December 2022 (CET)

: So I see a [[DUP11 synchronous serial line interface]] driver, [https://github.com/PDP-10/its/blob/master/src/mits_s/dup11.74 here]. The DUP11 sort of supported a number of framings (e.g. [[Digital Data Communications Message Protocol|DDCMP]], [[Synchronous Data Link Control|SDLC]], [[High-Level Data Link Control|HDLC]]) - 'sort of' because they weren't implemented in the DUP11 itself, but the DUP11 could be used to do them - but I can't interest myself in wading through the MIDAS-11 to figure out how the heck it works.
: There's a [[DMC11 Synchronous Serial Controller]] driver too, [https://github.com/PDP-10/its/blob/master/src/mits_s/dmc11.44 here]. [[User:Jnc|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc|talk]]) 03:59, 31 December 2022 (CET)

== Links on appropriate pages? ==

In your edit (@jnc), you removed some inline references I added, and commented "also, move URL links to appropriate pages". Where are these, and why not use inline references (which are traditional in academic writing, and don't disturb the reading much I think)?
--[[User:Bv|Bv]] ([[User talk:Bv|talk]]) 12:26, 31 December 2022 (CET)

: The ARP protocol spec was already linked to in the 'External links' section of the [[Address Resolution Protocol|ARP]] page, [[Address Resolution Protocol#External links|here]]. (I'm a big devotee of "perfection has been attained not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away", so no duplication of content unless there is a ''very'' good reason; and in the ARP article is where one would ''expect'' to find it, if one wanted it.) The Ethernet protocol list link I moved to the [[Ethernet]] page, [[Ethernet#External links|here]], in [https://gunkies.org/w/index.php?title=Ethernet&diff=28330&oldid=27200 this edit].
: The CHWiki has a much less intense attitude to sourcing than Wikipedia does; this was set before I got here, see [[Main Page#Introduction by the Administrators]]. I have never felt that I had a problem with that, so I was happy to not source things. Wikipedia style (which I generally like to follow here) is not to have external links buried in page text, but to corral them all to a section at the bottom. (That also allows displaying the document title on the link; done inline, one would either have to distract the text flow with the title, or show the link as an un-informative '[1]'.) That includes links in their references, which, by the way their reference system works, are for display also corralled to a section at the bottom.
: I also really like to see just the plain text when I'm editing, so I can focus hard on the order of presentation of ideas, and especially the clarity, brevity and accuracy of the text. (Doing that on Wikipedia, with its in-line citation entry style, is hard - which to me may be partially to blame for Wikipedia's often less than optimal presentation.) To me, giving a clear understanding to our readers, who will generally have limited time and interest, should be our number one goal. (If they want the details, they can consult the 'Further reading' - for those few things only available in hard-copy - or 'External links' for the full documentation - which is why I've put a lot of work into filling those in.) [[User:Jnc|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc|talk]]) 14:38, 31 December 2022 (CET)

: OK, I see. While I generally agree (and cleaned up my last edit), I really like seeing references both for quotes (such as the speed of the original Chaosnet) and for directing the reader to the fact in point, such as the protocol numbers for Ethernet or IP - there is massive documentation for both, and finding particular facts might not be easy. I've seen discussions/questions about these things (years ago), also about ARP usage.
: Q: what is the best way to give a reference the quote from AIM 628? It seems the Cite extension is unavailable here?
: Q: what about the port numbers for IP? Similarly, I think the Cite extension would be quite useful for this?
: --[[User:Bv|Bv]] ([[User talk:Bv|talk]]) 17:30, 31 December 2022 (CET)

Chaosnet

2022-12-31T16:21:05Z

Bv:

'''Chaosnet''' is the name for both an [[internetworking]] [[protocol suite|protocol family]], and an early [[Local area network|LAN]] technology, both invented at the [[MIT AI Laboratory]]; the latter was the LAN on which the protocol first ran.

The LAN was a [[Carrier-Sense Multiple Access with Collision Detection|CSMA-CD]] system modeled on the [[Xerox PARC]] 3 megabit/second Experimental [[Ethernet]], running over [[cable TV]] [[coaxial cable]] (using standard CATV connectors to connect the [[transceiver]]s; not vampire taps, as on the Experimental Ethernet).

The protocol was later made to run over standard 10 megabit/second Ethernet, which largely supplanted the Chaosnet hardware. (On Ethernet, the [[Address Resolution Protocol]] is required to provide [[mapping]]s from 16-[[bit]] Chaos [[address]]es to the [[Media Access Control Address‎|48-bit addresses]] used by Ethernet.)

The protocol provided a [[reliable byte stream]] service, but also had a [[datagram]] mode.

== History ==

Chaosnet was developed at MIT around 1973-1975, for [[LISP machine]]s (personal workstations developed to run LISP). It was a local network protocol (about 1-2 km cable lengths), without central control (thus “chaos”). It was “cheap, efficient and fast”: circa 10 times the speed of the [[ARPANET]], or 30000 characters per second (or “double this in some favorable cases”)[https://chaosnet.net/amber.html].

Chaosnet was initially called CAIOSnet.

== Encapsulation ==

Historically, the protocol ran only directly on LANs. On hardware Chaosnet, no encapsulation was used. On Ethernet, protocol 0x0804 was allocated for carriage of Chaosnet protocol traffic.

In addition to the Ethernet implementations described above, several encapsulations have been developed. The standard one is using protocol 16 (decimal) on the [[Internet Protocol]] - this was implemented e.g in TOPS-20 and in Cisco routers [https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/ios-xml/ios/qos_nbar/prot_lib/config_library/pp5000/nbar-prot-pack5000/c.html#wp2475366549].

Currently, Chaosnet is encapsulated also in:

* Unix domain sockets (e.g. for the [[CADR]] emulator)
* [[User Datagram Protocol|UDP]] (originally developed for [[KLH10]])
* [[TLS]] over [[TCP/IP]] (the preferred encapsulation across the [[Internet]], see [https://github.com/bictorv/chaosnet-bridge/blob/master/TLS.md])

There is a [[bridge]]/[[router]] that understands all these, including Ethernet and IP, written by Bjorn Victor. It also has an API (a "Network Control Program") providing Chaosnet for modern computers.

== Implementations ==

* [[LISP machine]]s
* [[Incompatible Timesharing System|ITS]]
* [[TOPS-20]]
* [[FOONEX]]
* [[VMS|VAX/VMS]]
* [[BSD|BSD Unix]]
* [[MINITS]]
* [[NSWIT]]
* PDP-11 [[Unix Seventh Edition|Unix V7]]
* [[Unix Eighth Edition|Unix V8]]
* [[MagicSix]]
* [https://github.com/bictorv/chaosnet-bridge Chaosnet Bridge]
* Oswalds's [http://josephoswald.nfshost.com/chaos-python/summary.html Python] and [http://josephoswald.nfshost.com/chaos-lisp/summary.html Lisp] implementations
* [[Linux]]

== Hardware, and simulations ==

* CH11, [[UNIBUS]] device
* [[QBCHNI]], [[QBUS]] device
* CH10, [[PDP-10]] I/O bus device

* [[KLH10]] simulates a CH11
* [[SIMH]]'s [[KS10]], [[PDP-11]], and [[VAX]] simulate a CH11
* SIMH's [[KA10]] and [[KL10]] simulates a CH10

== External links ==

* [http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/mit/ai/AIM-628_chaosnet.pdf AI memo 628] - Includes chapters on ITS, TOPS-20, Lisp Machine, and Unix implementations.
** [https://chaosnet.net/amber.html Chaosnet] - HTML version of the memo.
* [https://github.com/PDP-10/its-vault/blob/master/files/sysdoc/chaord.57 SYSDOC;CHAORD >] - Initial design
* [https://github.com/PDP-10/its-vault/blob/master/files/moon/amber.66 MOON;AMBER >] - Another Moon document, early version of AI Memo 628.
* [https://tumbleweed.nu/r/lm-3/uv/amber.html Chaosnet] - Detailed descriptions of both the hardware system, and the protociol(s)
* [https://github.com/PDP-10/its-vault/tree/master/files/chaos CHAOS;] - hardware interface designs, etc.
** [https://github.com/PDP-10/its-vault/blob/master/files/chaos/chaos.plans CHAOS;CHAOS PLANS] - interesting details of the physical installation at MIT
* [https://chaosnet.net/ Chaosnet wiki] - central site for a global emulated Chaosnet, also with descriptions of packet formats and (application) protocol details.

{{semi-stub}}

[[Category: Networking]]

Talk:Chaosnet

2022-12-31T11:26:28Z

Bv: /* Links on appropriate pages? */ new section

Talk:Chaosnet

2022-12-31T11:24:06Z

Bv: /* "Emulated" Chaosnet? */

Chaosnet

2022-12-31T11:20:19Z

Bv:

'''Chaosnet''' is the name for both an [[internetworking]] [[protocol suite|protocol family]], and an early [[Local area network|LAN]] technology, both invented at the [[MIT AI Laboratory]]; the latter was the LAN on which the protocol first ran.

The LAN was a [[Carrier-Sense Multiple Access with Collision Detection|CSMA-CD]] system modeled on the [[Xerox PARC]] 3 megabit/second Experimental [[Ethernet]], running over [[cable TV]] [[coaxial cable]] (using standard CATV connectors to connect the [[transceiver]]s; not vampire taps, as on the Experimental Ethernet).

The protocol was later made to run over standard 10 megabit/second Ethernet, which largely supplanted the Chaosnet hardware. (On Ethernet, the [[Address Resolution Protocol]] is required to provide [[mapping]]s from 16-[[bit]] Chaos [[address]]es to the [[Media Access Control Address‎|48-bit addresses]] used by Ethernet.)

The protocol provided a [[reliable byte stream]] service, but also had a [[datagram]] mode.

== History ==

Chaosnet was developed at MIT around 1973-1975, for [[LISP machine]]s (personal workstations developed to run LISP). It was a local network protocol (about 1-2 km cable lengths), without central control (thus “chaos”). It was “cheap, efficient and fast”: circa 10 times the speed of the [[ARPANET]], or 30000 characters per second (or “double this in some favorable cases”) [https://chaosnet.net/amber.html].

Chaosnet was initially called CAIOSnet.

== Encapsulation ==

Historically, the protocol ran only directly on LANs. On hardware Chaosnet, no encapsulation was used. On Ethernet, protocol 0x0804 was allocated for carriage of Chaosnet protocol traffic.

In addition to the Ethernet implementations described above, several encapsulations have been developed. The standard one is using protocol 16 (decimal) on the [[Internet Protocol]] - this was implemented e.g in TOPS-20 and in Cisco routers [https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/ios-xml/ios/qos_nbar/prot_lib/config_library/pp5000/nbar-prot-pack5000/c.html#wp2475366549].

Currently, Chaosnet is encapsulated also in:

* Unix domain sockets (e.g. for the [[CADR]] emulator [http://www.unlambda.com/cadr/])
* [[User Datagram Protocol|UDP]] (originally developed for [[KLH10]] [https://github.com/PDP-10/klh10])
* [[TLS]] over [[TCP/IP]] (the preferred encapsulation across the [[Internet]], see [https://github.com/bictorv/chaosnet-bridge/blob/master/TLS.md])

There is a [[bridge]]/[[router]] that understands all these, including Ethernet and IP, written by Bjorn Victor. It also has an API (a "Network Control Program") providing Chaosnet for modern computers.

== Implementations ==

* [[LISP machine]]s
* [[Incompatible Timesharing System|ITS]]
* [[TOPS-20]]
* [[FOONEX]]
* [[VMS|VAX/VMS]]
* [[BSD|BSD Unix]]
* [[MINITS]]
* [[NSWIT]]
* PDP-11 [[Unix Seventh Edition|Unix V7]]
* [[Unix Eighth Edition|Unix V8]]
* [[MagicSix]]
* [https://github.com/bictorv/chaosnet-bridge Chaosnet Bridge]
* Oswalds's [http://josephoswald.nfshost.com/chaos-python/summary.html Python] and [http://josephoswald.nfshost.com/chaos-lisp/summary.html Lisp] implementations
* [[Linux]]

== Hardware, and simulations ==

* CH11, [[UNIBUS]] device
* [[QBCHNI]], [[QBUS]] device
* CH10, [[PDP-10]] I/O bus device

* [[KLH10]] simulates a CH11
* [[SIMH]]'s [[KS10]], [[PDP-11]], and [[VAX]] simulate a CH11
* SIMH's [[KA10]] and [[KL10]] simulates a CH10

== External links ==

* [http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/mit/ai/AIM-628_chaosnet.pdf AI memo 628] - Includes chapters on ITS, TOPS-20, Lisp Machine, and Unix implementations.
** [https://chaosnet.net/amber.html Chaosnet] - HTML version of the memo.
* [https://github.com/PDP-10/its-vault/blob/master/files/sysdoc/chaord.57 SYSDOC;CHAORD >] - Initial design
* [https://github.com/PDP-10/its-vault/blob/master/files/moon/amber.66 MOON;AMBER >] - Another Moon document, early version of AI Memo 628.
* [https://tumbleweed.nu/r/lm-3/uv/amber.html Chaosnet] - Detailed descriptions of both the hardware system, and the protociol(s)
* [https://github.com/PDP-10/its-vault/tree/master/files/chaos CHAOS;] - hardware interface designs, etc.
** [https://github.com/PDP-10/its-vault/blob/master/files/chaos/chaos.plans CHAOS;CHAOS PLANS] - interesting details of the physical installation at MIT
* [https://chaosnet.net/ Chaosnet wiki] - central site for a global emulated Chaosnet

{{semi-stub}}

[[Category: Networking]]

User:Bv

2022-12-31T11:13:33Z

Bv:

I used to be a [[TOPS-20]] and [[Lisp machine]] hacker back in my student days, and 40 years later I find that, again, I am a TOPS-20 and Lisp machine hacker - and I also hack [[ITS]]. (Along the way I became a professor in computing science.)

One of my hobbies is working on [[Chaosnet]], e.g. for [[TOPS-20]] and modern computers, see [https://chaosnet.net]. I have also worked on [[DNS]] support in [[Lisp machine]]s and [[ITS]]. (I wrote the support for A records for the CHaosnet class in bind9 [http://chaosnet.net/chaos-dns].)

Talk:Chaosnet

2022-12-30T17:59:20Z

Bv: /* "Emulated" Chaosnet? */

Talk:Chaosnet

2022-12-30T17:58:56Z

Bv: /* "Emulated" Chaosnet? */ new section

Chaosnet

2022-12-30T17:55:23Z

Bv: Added references for Ethernet and IP (and clarified those parts a little, e.g. implementations of the IP encapsulations); added a little history (and links to the Amber document); added a little about the Chaosnet bridge.

'''Chaosnet''' is the name for both an [[internetworking]] [[protocol suite|protocol family]], and an early [[Local area network|LAN]] technology, both invented at the [[MIT AI Laboratory]]; the latter was the LAN on which the protocol first ran.

The LAN was a [[Carrier-Sense Multiple Access with Collision Detection|CSMA-CD]] system modeled on the [[Xerox PARC]] 3 megabit/second Experimental [[Ethernet]], running over [[cable TV]] [[coaxial cable]] (using standard CATV connectors to connect the [[transceiver]]s; not vampire taps, as on the Experimental Ethernet).

The protocol was later made to run over standard 10 megabit/second Ethernet (using protocol 0x0804 [https://www.iana.org/assignments/ieee-802-numbers/ieee-802-numbers.xhtml]), which largely supplanted the Chaosnet hardware. (On Ethernet, the [[Address Resolution Protocol]] is required to provide [[mapping]]s from 16-[[bit]] Chaos [[address]]es to the [[Media Access Control Address‎|48-bit addresses]] used by Ethernet, see [https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc826].)

The protocol provided a [[reliable byte stream]] service, but also had a [[datagram]] mode.

== History ==

Chaosnet was developed at MIT around 1973-1975, for [[LISP machine]]s (personal workstations developed to run LISP). It was a local network protocol (about 1-2 km cable lengths), without central control (thus “chaos”). It was “cheap, efficient and fast”: ca 10 times the speed of ARPAnet, or 30000 characters per second (or “double this in some favorable cases”) [https://chaosnet.net/amber.html].

Chaosnet was initially called CAIOSnet.

== Encapsulation ==

In addition to the (experimental) Ethernet implementations described above, several encapsulations have been developed. The standard one is using protocol 16 (decimal) on the [[Internet Protocol]] - this was implemented e.g in TOPS-20 and in Cisco routers.

Currently, emulated Chaosnet also uses:

* Unix domain sockets (e.g. for the [CADR] emulator)
* [[User Datagram Protocol|UDP]] (originally developed for [KLH10])
* [[TLS]] over [[TCP/IP]] (preferred encapsulation across the [[Internet]])

There is a [[bridge]]/[[router]] that understands all these, including Ethernet and IP, written by Bjorn Victor. It also has an API (a "Network Control Program") providing Chaosnet for modern computers.

== Implementations ==

* [[LISP machine]]s
* [[Incompatible Timesharing System|ITS]]
* [[TOPS-20]]
* [[FOONEX]]
* [[VMS|VAX/VMS]]
* [[BSD|BSD Unix]]
* [[MINITS]]
* [[NSWIT]]
* PDP-11 [[Unix Seventh Edition|Unix V7]]
* [[Unix Eighth Edition|Unix V8]]
* [[MagicSix]]
* [https://github.com/bictorv/chaosnet-bridge Chaosnet Bridge]
* Oswalds's [http://josephoswald.nfshost.com/chaos-python/summary.html Python] and [http://josephoswald.nfshost.com/chaos-lisp/summary.html Lisp] implementations
* [[Linux]]

== Hardware, and simulations ==

* CH11, [[UNIBUS]] device
* [[QBCHNI]], [[QBUS]] device
* CH10, [[PDP-10]] I/O bus device

* [[KLH10]] simulates a CH11
* [[SIMH]]'s [[KS10]], [[PDP-11]], and [[VAX]] simulate a CH11
* SIMH's [[KA10]] and [[KL10]] simulates a CH10

== External links ==

* [http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/mit/ai/AIM-628_chaosnet.pdf AI memo 628] - Includes chapters on ITS, TOPS-20, Lisp Machine, and Unix implementations. See [https://chaosnet.net/amber.html] for a HTML version of the memo.
* [https://github.com/PDP-10/its-vault/blob/master/files/sysdoc/chaord.57 SYSDOC;CHAORD >] - Initial design
* [https://github.com/PDP-10/its-vault/blob/master/files/moon/amber.66 MOON;AMBER >] - Another Moon document, early version of AI Memo 628.
* [https://tumbleweed.nu/r/lm-3/uv/amber.html Chaosnet] - Detailed descriptions of both the hardware system, and the protociol(s)
* [https://github.com/PDP-10/its-vault/tree/master/files/chaos CHAOS;] - hardware interface designs, etc.
** [https://github.com/PDP-10/its-vault/blob/master/files/chaos/chaos.plans CHAOS;CHAOS PLANS] - interesting details of the physical installation at MIT
* [https://chaosnet.net/ Chaosnet wiki] - central site for a global emulated Chaosnet

{{semi-stub}}

[[Category: Networking]]

User:Bv

2022-12-30T17:30:18Z

Bv: Created page with "I used to be a TOPS-20 and Lisp machine hacker back in my student days, and 40 years later I find that, again, I am a TOPS-20 and Lisp machine hacker - and I also hack ITS. (A..."

I used to be a TOPS-20 and Lisp machine hacker back in my student days, and 40 years later I find that, again, I am a TOPS-20 and Lisp machine hacker - and I also hack ITS. (Along the way I became a professor in computing science.)

One of my hobbies is working on Chaosnet, e.g. for TOPS-20 and modern computers, see [https://chaosnet.net].