Category talk:MSCP Disk Drives - Revision history

Jnc: Move ST506 discussion to relevant Talk: page

2024-01-05T03:09:23Z

Move ST506 discussion to relevant Talk: page

Jnc: /* Sub-categories needed */ Maybe replace the technically incorrect 'ST506 _MFM_ Disk Drives'

2023-12-29T16:39:44Z

‎Sub-categories needed: Maybe replace the technically incorrect 'ST506 _MFM_ Disk Drives'

Jnc: /* Sub-categories needed */ No immediate preference on the name

2023-09-01T10:45:23Z

‎Sub-categories needed: No immediate preference on the name

Vaxorcist at 07:51, 1 September 2023

2023-09-01T07:51:18Z

Jnc: /* Sub-categories needed */ Also "ST506/ST412 interface"

2023-08-31T15:36:18Z

‎Sub-categories needed: Also "ST506/ST412 interface"

Jnc: /* Sub-categories needed */ ST506 is good

2023-08-31T13:57:45Z

‎Sub-categories needed: ST506 is good

Vaxorcist at 12:56, 31 August 2023

2023-08-31T12:56:46Z

Jnc: /* Sub-categories needed */ RD drive interface

2023-08-31T10:28:43Z

‎Sub-categories needed: RD drive interface

Vaxorcist at 09:51, 31 August 2023

2023-08-31T09:51:43Z

Jnc: /* Sub-categories needed */ SDI sounds like a better choice

2023-08-30T20:25:50Z

‎Sub-categories needed: SDI sounds like a better choice

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:09, 5 January 2024
Line 8:		Line 8:
	:: I knew nothing of the later DEC disks; everything in the [[Standard Drive Bus]] article I got from the two DEC handbooks listed there. (I don't have them with me at the moment; and neither seems to be available online, alas.) But I'm fairly sure what's in that article is right; I had them right in front of me when I wrote it.		:: I knew nothing of the later DEC disks; everything in the [[Standard Drive Bus]] article I got from the two DEC handbooks listed there. (I don't have them with me at the moment; and neither seems to be available online, alas.) But I'm fairly sure what's in that article is right; I had them right in front of me when I wrote it.
	:: According to that, the SDB is the lower layer of both the [[Standard Disk Interconnect]] and [[Standard Tape Interconnect]]; "both add higher layer [[protocol]]s which are adapted to the needs of their supported device types". So we could call them 'SDI disks'; technically, that's totally accurate - almost by definition, all the SDB disks are 'SDI disks'. And you have a good point that SDB is certainly a rare term, and SDI seems to be the more usual one. So I think it makes sense to use [[:Category:SDI Disk Drives]] for the sub-category.		:: According to that, the SDB is the lower layer of both the [[Standard Disk Interconnect]] and [[Standard Tape Interconnect]]; "both add higher layer [[protocol]]s which are adapted to the needs of their supported device types". So we could call them 'SDI disks'; technically, that's totally accurate - almost by definition, all the SDB disks are 'SDI disks'. And you have a good point that SDB is certainly a rare term, and SDI seems to be the more usual one. So I think it makes sense to use [[:Category:SDI Disk Drives]] for the sub-category.
−
−	:: I don't know what the RDxx disks use for a hardware interface; I will look once the SDI disks are dealt with. MFM, as in [[Modified Frequency Modulation]], refers to how the bits are encoded in the magnetic layer; so unless there is some other expansion of 'MFM', that is not the name of the hardware interface. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 22:25, 30 August 2023 (CEST)
−
−	::: I already made a class "DEC ST506 MFM Disk Drives" (Sorry, my memory is very weak) - I think ST506 is the name of the hardware interface of the RDxx disks. So "DEC ST506 MFM Disk Drives" could be the MSCP sub-class for the RDxx disks. [[User:Vaxorcist\|Vaxorcist]] ([[User talk:Vaxorcist\|talk]]) 11:51, 31 August 2023 (CEST)
−
−	I looked in all the RD/RQDX documentation there was for a name for the interface to RD-series disks, but could not find one. Something in [https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/rqdx1-and-rqdx2-woes.58527/ Mattis Lind's note] made me think that it's an industry standard of some sort: "Formatting the disk with a ST class MFM controller". This implies than an RD disk will talk to non-DEC controllers --> the interface to RD disks is an industry standard.
−
−	If we knew more about 'ST class MFM controllers', perhaps that would tell us? I put 'ST class MFM controller' into a search engine, and after some reading, it seems that there is something of a standard interface used with early Seagate drives. (Good discussion [https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/mfm-drives-in-at-machines.72535/ here] and especially [https://groups.google.com/g/comp.os.cpm/c/BmmvgA0QGkU here]. Effectively an informal predecessor to IDE, but serial instead of parallel.) One person commented "I don't believe there was ever a generic name given to the interface"; people apparently started calling them 'MFM drives'. (Example [http://www.pdp8online.com/mfm/mfm.shtml here].) That is a poor name, though, because there are lots of drives that use MFM.
−
−	A name along the lines you used above might work, '''but''' it would be absolutely critical to have a page here describing this drive interface 'standard' in some detail, which the category header could link to. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 12:28, 31 August 2023 (CEST)
−
−	: The "ST" is "ST506" (sometimes "ST412"), see [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ST506/ST412#Interface_to_controller]. All DEC RDxx disks can be used on ordinary early PCs (86/286/386), and some ST506 disks manufactured for PCs can be formatted and used with MicroVAXen and RQDX1/2/3 controllers. I can write a page on the ST506 standard. [[User:Vaxorcist\|Vaxorcist]] ([[User talk:Vaxorcist\|talk]]) 14:56, 31 August 2023 (CEST)
−
−	:: I found this page: [https://www.redhill.net.au/d/1.php hard drive history - beginings: mfm drives of the 1980s] which is a good brief intro. Amusingly (to me), it says "Note: 'ST-412' is correct. You will often see 'ST412' written in error": but if you look at the [http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/seagate/mfm/ST-506/ST506_Product_Manual_Jul83.pdf ST506 Product Manual] and the [http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/seagate/mfm/ST-412/ST406_ST412_ST419_Product_Manual_Jan84.pdf ST412 Product Manual], Seagate ''themselves'' didn't ''usually'' write 'ST-xxx' (although I did see one instance of that). They generally used 'STxxx', for the ST506, and 'ST xxx', for the ST412.
−	:: So, I think some variant of 'ST506' would be the right name, although I'd prefer [[:Category: DEC ST506 Disk Drives]]. (The 'MFM' kind of irks me, not least because a later 'ST506 interface' drive actually used [[RLL]], not [[MFM]]! :-). And yes, it should be a sub-category of the MSCP category. (Note, though, that I have put the SDI/LESI/DSSI disk categories in other categories ''as well as'' in [[:Category:MSCP Disk Drives]], to make them easier to find - other people might not think to look in 'MSCP Drives' for them.)
−	:: Yes, a page called [[ST506 disk interface]] or something like that would be good to have; although it should mention up top, where other names for them are mentioned, that many places/people call them 'ST412' and 'MFM disks'. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 15:57, 31 August 2023 (CEST)
−
−	~~:: [http://www.pdp8online.com/mfm/mfm_old.shtml This page] calls it the "ST506/ST412 interface", which also a good choice. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 17:36, 31 August 2023 (CEST)~~
−
−	::: Just created the page [[ST506 disk interface]] before reading your last message. Feel free to rename or improve it! [[User:Vaxorcist\|Vaxorcist]] ([[User talk:Vaxorcist\|talk]]) 09:51, 1 September 2023 (CEST)
−
−	:::: Let me think about the name a bit, and look around to see if other people show any preference between 'ST506' and 'ST506/ST412'. (I personally don't have any preference.) Once that decision has been made, we should make a ''lot'' of redirects, though!
−	~~:::: I think I can improve the text, and will do so. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 12:45, 1 September 2023 (CEST)~~
−
−	:::: We also need to think about replacing the technically incorrect [[:Category:DEC ST506 MFM Disk Drives]] with [[:Category: DEC ST506 Disk Drives]]. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 17:39, 29 December 2023 (CET)

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:39, 29 December 2023
Line 31:		Line 31:
	:::: Let me think about the name a bit, and look around to see if other people show any preference between 'ST506' and 'ST506/ST412'. (I personally don't have any preference.) Once that decision has been made, we should make a ''lot'' of redirects, though!		:::: Let me think about the name a bit, and look around to see if other people show any preference between 'ST506' and 'ST506/ST412'. (I personally don't have any preference.) Once that decision has been made, we should make a ''lot'' of redirects, though!
	:::: I think I can improve the text, and will do so. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 12:45, 1 September 2023 (CEST)		:::: I think I can improve the text, and will do so. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 12:45, 1 September 2023 (CEST)
		+
		+	:::: We also need to think about replacing the technically incorrect [[:Category:DEC ST506 MFM Disk Drives]] with [[:Category: DEC ST506 Disk Drives]]. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 17:39, 29 December 2023 (CET)

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:45, 1 September 2023
Line 28:		Line 28:

	::: Just created the page [[ST506 disk interface]] before reading your last message. Feel free to rename or improve it! [[User:Vaxorcist\|Vaxorcist]] ([[User talk:Vaxorcist\|talk]]) 09:51, 1 September 2023 (CEST)		::: Just created the page [[ST506 disk interface]] before reading your last message. Feel free to rename or improve it! [[User:Vaxorcist\|Vaxorcist]] ([[User talk:Vaxorcist\|talk]]) 09:51, 1 September 2023 (CEST)
		+
		+	:::: Let me think about the name a bit, and look around to see if other people show any preference between 'ST506' and 'ST506/ST412'. (I personally don't have any preference.) Once that decision has been made, we should make a ''lot'' of redirects, though!
		+	:::: I think I can improve the text, and will do so. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 12:45, 1 September 2023 (CEST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:51, 1 September 2023
Line 26:		Line 26:

	:: [http://www.pdp8online.com/mfm/mfm_old.shtml This page] calls it the "ST506/ST412 interface", which also a good choice. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 17:36, 31 August 2023 (CEST)		:: [http://www.pdp8online.com/mfm/mfm_old.shtml This page] calls it the "ST506/ST412 interface", which also a good choice. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 17:36, 31 August 2023 (CEST)
		+
		+	::: Just created the page [[ST506 disk interface]] before reading your last message. Feel free to rename or improve it! [[User:Vaxorcist\|Vaxorcist]] ([[User talk:Vaxorcist\|talk]]) 09:51, 1 September 2023 (CEST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:36, 31 August 2023
Line 24:		Line 24:
	:: So, I think some variant of 'ST506' would be the right name, although I'd prefer [[:Category: DEC ST506 Disk Drives]]. (The 'MFM' kind of irks me, not least because a later 'ST506 interface' drive actually used [[RLL]], not [[MFM]]! :-). And yes, it should be a sub-category of the MSCP category. (Note, though, that I have put the SDI/LESI/DSSI disk categories in other categories ''as well as'' in [[:Category:MSCP Disk Drives]], to make them easier to find - other people might not think to look in 'MSCP Drives' for them.)		:: So, I think some variant of 'ST506' would be the right name, although I'd prefer [[:Category: DEC ST506 Disk Drives]]. (The 'MFM' kind of irks me, not least because a later 'ST506 interface' drive actually used [[RLL]], not [[MFM]]! :-). And yes, it should be a sub-category of the MSCP category. (Note, though, that I have put the SDI/LESI/DSSI disk categories in other categories ''as well as'' in [[:Category:MSCP Disk Drives]], to make them easier to find - other people might not think to look in 'MSCP Drives' for them.)
	:: Yes, a page called [[ST506 disk interface]] or something like that would be good to have; although it should mention up top, where other names for them are mentioned, that many places/people call them 'ST412' and 'MFM disks'. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 15:57, 31 August 2023 (CEST)		:: Yes, a page called [[ST506 disk interface]] or something like that would be good to have; although it should mention up top, where other names for them are mentioned, that many places/people call them 'ST412' and 'MFM disks'. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 15:57, 31 August 2023 (CEST)
		+
		+	:: [http://www.pdp8online.com/mfm/mfm_old.shtml This page] calls it the "ST506/ST412 interface", which also a good choice. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 17:36, 31 August 2023 (CEST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:57, 31 August 2023
Line 20:		Line 20:

	: The "ST" is "ST506" (sometimes "ST412"), see [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ST506/ST412#Interface_to_controller]. All DEC RDxx disks can be used on ordinary early PCs (86/286/386), and some ST506 disks manufactured for PCs can be formatted and used with MicroVAXen and RQDX1/2/3 controllers. I can write a page on the ST506 standard. [[User:Vaxorcist\|Vaxorcist]] ([[User talk:Vaxorcist\|talk]]) 14:56, 31 August 2023 (CEST)		: The "ST" is "ST506" (sometimes "ST412"), see [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ST506/ST412#Interface_to_controller]. All DEC RDxx disks can be used on ordinary early PCs (86/286/386), and some ST506 disks manufactured for PCs can be formatted and used with MicroVAXen and RQDX1/2/3 controllers. I can write a page on the ST506 standard. [[User:Vaxorcist\|Vaxorcist]] ([[User talk:Vaxorcist\|talk]]) 14:56, 31 August 2023 (CEST)
		+
		+	:: I found this page: [https://www.redhill.net.au/d/1.php hard drive history - beginings: mfm drives of the 1980s] which is a good brief intro. Amusingly (to me), it says "Note: 'ST-412' is correct. You will often see 'ST412' written in error": but if you look at the [http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/seagate/mfm/ST-506/ST506_Product_Manual_Jul83.pdf ST506 Product Manual] and the [http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/seagate/mfm/ST-412/ST406_ST412_ST419_Product_Manual_Jan84.pdf ST412 Product Manual], Seagate ''themselves'' didn't ''usually'' write 'ST-xxx' (although I did see one instance of that). They generally used 'STxxx', for the ST506, and 'ST xxx', for the ST412.
		+	:: So, I think some variant of 'ST506' would be the right name, although I'd prefer [[:Category: DEC ST506 Disk Drives]]. (The 'MFM' kind of irks me, not least because a later 'ST506 interface' drive actually used [[RLL]], not [[MFM]]! :-). And yes, it should be a sub-category of the MSCP category. (Note, though, that I have put the SDI/LESI/DSSI disk categories in other categories ''as well as'' in [[:Category:MSCP Disk Drives]], to make them easier to find - other people might not think to look in 'MSCP Drives' for them.)
		+	:: Yes, a page called [[ST506 disk interface]] or something like that would be good to have; although it should mention up top, where other names for them are mentioned, that many places/people call them 'ST412' and 'MFM disks'. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 15:57, 31 August 2023 (CEST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:56, 31 August 2023
Line 18:		Line 18:

	A name along the lines you used above might work, '''but''' it would be absolutely critical to have a page here describing this drive interface 'standard' in some detail, which the category header could link to. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 12:28, 31 August 2023 (CEST)		A name along the lines you used above might work, '''but''' it would be absolutely critical to have a page here describing this drive interface 'standard' in some detail, which the category header could link to. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 12:28, 31 August 2023 (CEST)
		+
		+	: The "ST" is "ST506" (sometimes "ST412"), see [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ST506/ST412#Interface_to_controller]. All DEC RDxx disks can be used on ordinary early PCs (86/286/386), and some ST506 disks manufactured for PCs can be formatted and used with MicroVAXen and RQDX1/2/3 controllers. I can write a page on the ST506 standard. [[User:Vaxorcist\|Vaxorcist]] ([[User talk:Vaxorcist\|talk]]) 14:56, 31 August 2023 (CEST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:28, 31 August 2023
Line 12:		Line 12:

	::: I already made a class "DEC ST506 MFM Disk Drives" (Sorry, my memory is very weak) - I think ST506 is the name of the hardware interface of the RDxx disks. So "DEC ST506 MFM Disk Drives" could be the MSCP sub-class for the RDxx disks. [[User:Vaxorcist\|Vaxorcist]] ([[User talk:Vaxorcist\|talk]]) 11:51, 31 August 2023 (CEST)		::: I already made a class "DEC ST506 MFM Disk Drives" (Sorry, my memory is very weak) - I think ST506 is the name of the hardware interface of the RDxx disks. So "DEC ST506 MFM Disk Drives" could be the MSCP sub-class for the RDxx disks. [[User:Vaxorcist\|Vaxorcist]] ([[User talk:Vaxorcist\|talk]]) 11:51, 31 August 2023 (CEST)
		+
		+	I looked in all the RD/RQDX documentation there was for a name for the interface to RD-series disks, but could not find one. Something in [https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/rqdx1-and-rqdx2-woes.58527/ Mattis Lind's note] made me think that it's an industry standard of some sort: "Formatting the disk with a ST class MFM controller". This implies than an RD disk will talk to non-DEC controllers --> the interface to RD disks is an industry standard.
		+
		+	If we knew more about 'ST class MFM controllers', perhaps that would tell us? I put 'ST class MFM controller' into a search engine, and after some reading, it seems that there is something of a standard interface used with early Seagate drives. (Good discussion [https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/mfm-drives-in-at-machines.72535/ here] and especially [https://groups.google.com/g/comp.os.cpm/c/BmmvgA0QGkU here]. Effectively an informal predecessor to IDE, but serial instead of parallel.) One person commented "I don't believe there was ever a generic name given to the interface"; people apparently started calling them 'MFM drives'. (Example [http://www.pdp8online.com/mfm/mfm.shtml here].) That is a poor name, though, because there are lots of drives that use MFM.
		+
		+	A name along the lines you used above might work, '''but''' it would be absolutely critical to have a page here describing this drive interface 'standard' in some detail, which the category header could link to. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 12:28, 31 August 2023 (CEST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:51, 31 August 2023
Line 10:		Line 10:

	:: I don't know what the RDxx disks use for a hardware interface; I will look once the SDI disks are dealt with. MFM, as in [[Modified Frequency Modulation]], refers to how the bits are encoded in the magnetic layer; so unless there is some other expansion of 'MFM', that is not the name of the hardware interface. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 22:25, 30 August 2023 (CEST)		:: I don't know what the RDxx disks use for a hardware interface; I will look once the SDI disks are dealt with. MFM, as in [[Modified Frequency Modulation]], refers to how the bits are encoded in the magnetic layer; so unless there is some other expansion of 'MFM', that is not the name of the hardware interface. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 22:25, 30 August 2023 (CEST)
		+
		+	::: I already made a class "DEC ST506 MFM Disk Drives" (Sorry, my memory is very weak) - I think ST506 is the name of the hardware interface of the RDxx disks. So "DEC ST506 MFM Disk Drives" could be the MSCP sub-class for the RDxx disks. [[User:Vaxorcist\|Vaxorcist]] ([[User talk:Vaxorcist\|talk]]) 11:51, 31 August 2023 (CEST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:25, 30 August 2023
Line 4:		Line 4:

	: The RDxx drives are another sub-category of the MSCP main class, but I do not know the name DEC used for the physical layer - maybe we could use "MFM"?		: The RDxx drives are another sub-category of the MSCP main class, but I do not know the name DEC used for the physical layer - maybe we could use "MFM"?
		+	: Another (related) thought: Aren't "[[SDI]]" and "SDB" two names for the same thing? All RAxx disks are SDI and I think they're SDB, too. To me SDI is much more common than SDB so I'd prefer SDI, but I wouldn't have any serious objections to SDB either. [[User:Vaxorcist\|Vaxorcist]] ([[User talk:Vaxorcist\|talk]]) 19:30, 30 August 2023 (CEST)

−	: ~~Another~~ (~~related~~) ~~thought~~: ~~Aren't "~~[[~~SDI~~]]" and "~~SDB~~" ~~two names for~~ the ~~same thing? All RAxx~~ disks are SDI ~~and I think they~~'re SDB, ~~too. To me~~ SDI ~~is much~~ more ~~common than SDB so~~ I~~'d prefer~~ SDI~~, but~~ I ~~wouldn~~'t ~~have any serious objections~~ to ~~SDB either~~. [[User:~~Vaxorcist~~\|~~Vaxorcist~~]] ([[User talk:~~Vaxorcist~~\|talk]]) 19:30, 30 August 2023 (CEST)	+	:: I knew nothing of the later DEC disks; everything in the [[Standard Drive Bus]] article I got from the two DEC handbooks listed there. (I don't have them with me at the moment; and neither seems to be available online, alas.) But I'm fairly sure what's in that article is right; I had them right in front of me when I wrote it.
		+	:: According to that, the SDB is the lower layer of both the [[Standard Disk Interconnect]] and [[Standard Tape Interconnect]]; "both add higher layer [[protocol]]s which are adapted to the needs of their supported device types". So we could call them 'SDI disks'; technically, that's totally accurate - almost by definition, all the SDB disks are 'SDI disks'. And you have a good point that SDB is certainly a rare term, and SDI seems to be the more usual one. So I think it makes sense to use [[:Category:SDI Disk Drives]] for the sub-category.
		+
		+	:: I don't know what the RDxx disks use for a hardware interface; I will look once the SDI disks are dealt with. MFM, as in [[Modified Frequency Modulation]], refers to how the bits are encoded in the magnetic layer; so unless there is some other expansion of 'MFM', that is not the name of the hardware interface. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 22:25, 30 August 2023 (CEST)