Talk:Chaosnet - Revision history

Jnc: /* Chaos hardware and protocol */ A fix for the "they used the same name for both" problem

2023-12-12T15:35:32Z

Chaos hardware and protocol: A fix for the "they used the same name for both" problem

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:35, 12 December 2023
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	:: After thinking about it for a while, keeping them both here is OK, but I'd like to be really strong on keeping the Chaosnet hardware and protocol separate. (It's really irritating they used the same name for both!) So I'd still like to have separate sections for i) the Chaosnet hardware header, and ii) the headers used by Chaos protocol on various kinds of hardware - including on Chaosnet hardware. Yes, the entries for Ethernet and Chaosnet hardware will be very short...		:: After thinking about it for a while, keeping them both here is OK, but I'd like to be really strong on keeping the Chaosnet hardware and protocol separate. (It's really irritating they used the same name for both!) So I'd still like to have separate sections for i) the Chaosnet hardware header, and ii) the headers used by Chaos protocol on various kinds of hardware - including on Chaosnet hardware. Yes, the entries for Ethernet and Chaosnet hardware will be very short...
	:: Oh, for Chaos protocol format on Ethernet; I tried looking in the CGW source to see what was done. It turns out the CGW never supported Chaos protocol on Ethernet! So I guess we'll have to look at the MINITS code to get a definitive answer. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 12:54, 11 December 2023 (CET)		:: Oh, for Chaos protocol format on Ethernet; I tried looking in the CGW source to see what was done. It turns out the CGW never supported Chaos protocol on Ethernet! So I guess we'll have to look at the MINITS code to get a definitive answer. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 12:54, 11 December 2023 (CET)

			:: I tried looking, but it was too hard; I gave up. Someone else should feel free! [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 16:35, 12 December 2023 (CET)

			To try and cure the "they used the same name for both" problem, I'd like to start a habit of using 'Chaosnet' for the hardware, and 'Chaos' for the software. I'm in the middle of adjusting the main article to do so, but I have discovered that I'll have to fix a few other things to follow that scheme; I hope that doesn't upset anyone! [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 16:35, 12 December 2023 (CET)

Jnc: /* Chaos hardware and protocol */ We'll have to look at the MINITS code to get a definitive answer on Chaos protocol format on Ethernet

2023-12-11T11:54:32Z

Chaos hardware and protocol: We'll have to look at the MINITS code to get a definitive answer on Chaos protocol format on Ethernet

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:54, 11 December 2023
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	: Good point, I made an update that I hope is a step in the right direction. I don't really know what a Chaosnet packet on Ethernet looks like; I would ''assume'' 1. it's a regular Ethernet frame with EtherType 0x0804, and 2. the payload is just the Chaosnet software packet part, i.e. without the 48-bit hardware header. If so, I don't think there's much more to be said about it in this article. And then maybe a split into two articles isn't necessary. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 11:44, 11 December 2023 (CET)		: Good point, I made an update that I hope is a step in the right direction. I don't really know what a Chaosnet packet on Ethernet looks like; I would ''assume'' 1. it's a regular Ethernet frame with EtherType 0x0804, and 2. the payload is just the Chaosnet software packet part, i.e. without the 48-bit hardware header. If so, I don't think there's much more to be said about it in this article. And then maybe a split into two articles isn't necessary. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 11:44, 11 December 2023 (CET)

			:: After thinking about it for a while, keeping them both here is OK, but I'd like to be really strong on keeping the Chaosnet hardware and protocol separate. (It's really irritating they used the same name for both!) So I'd still like to have separate sections for i) the Chaosnet hardware header, and ii) the headers used by Chaos protocol on various kinds of hardware - including on Chaosnet hardware. Yes, the entries for Ethernet and Chaosnet hardware will be very short...
			:: Oh, for Chaos protocol format on Ethernet; I tried looking in the CGW source to see what was done. It turns out the CGW never supported Chaos protocol on Ethernet! So I guess we'll have to look at the MINITS code to get a definitive answer. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 12:54, 11 December 2023 (CET)

Larsbrinkhoff: /* Chaos hardware and protocol */ Made an edit in that vein.

2023-12-11T10:44:32Z

Chaos hardware and protocol: Made an edit in that vein.

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:44, 11 December 2023
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	Comments? [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 10:38, 11 December 2023 (CET)		Comments? [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 10:38, 11 December 2023 (CET)

			: Good point, I made an update that I hope is a step in the right direction. I don't really know what a Chaosnet packet on Ethernet looks like; I would ''assume'' 1. it's a regular Ethernet frame with EtherType 0x0804, and 2. the payload is just the Chaosnet software packet part, i.e. without the 48-bit hardware header. If so, I don't think there's much more to be said about it in this article. And then maybe a split into two articles isn't necessary. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 11:44, 11 December 2023 (CET)

Jnc: /* Chaos hardware and protocol */ new section

2023-12-11T09:38:52Z

Chaos hardware and protocol: new section

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:38, 11 December 2023
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	:: It turns out the CGW Chaosnet code is already online; see the bottom of [[User:Jnc/Online‎]] for the link. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 02:54, 22 September 2023 (CEST)		:: It turns out the CGW Chaosnet code is already online; see the bottom of [[User:Jnc/Online‎]] for the link. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 02:54, 22 September 2023 (CEST)

			== Chaos hardware and protocol ==

			We need to be careful about keeping the Chaos hardware and protocol material separate. Chaos protocol ran mostly over Ethernet hardware towards the end of its working life; so they are quite different.

			In fact, I thought, at the start of writing this comment, that maybe we should split this into two separate articles (although looking at it, that would be some work; some of the content, like the early history, does not easily split), one for each. But what would we call them? All I can come up with is [[Chaosnet (hardware)]] and [[Chaosnet (protocol)]] (and [[Chaosnet]] would be a disambiguation - but maybe the history section would be left there too, to prevent having to duplicate it in both). Although now that I have thought about it, maybe it is not such a good idea? What do people think?

			I bring this up because of the recently added "Wire packet format". Chaos traffic of course had a 'wire packet format' on Ethernet - which I don't see described here - I guess the packet contents, after the LAN header, looked identical on the two types of networks? (And I guess interface network addresses on Chaosnet hardware included the subnet number, since it's a 16-bit field? Or did they / could they leave the high byte zero?)

			So maybe my concern there is handled by renaming that existing section to 'Header format of Chaosnet hardware' (or some variant which carefully and correctly names exactly what is described there) - and then we could have a new 'Packet formats on the wire' section, with sub-sections 'Packet format on Chaosnet hardware', 'Packet format on Ethernet', 'Packet format on synchronous serial lines', etc.

			Comments? [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 10:38, 11 December 2023 (CET)

Jnc: /* 'C Gateway' implementation */ It's already online

2023-09-22T00:55:31Z

'C Gateway' implementation: It's already online

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	:::: I have no objection to copies of anything I put online being put anywhere anyone wants (although it would be good to have a credit line being associated with any such). Backups are always a good idea. (Did you know that there was a complete copy of Diodorus' [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliotheca_historica 'Library of World History'], from ca. 1st century BC, in the library of Constantinople until it fell to the Turks in AD 1492? Alas, a copy of it did not make it to the West before the city fell, like so much else that has survived.)		:::: I have no objection to copies of anything I put online being put anywhere anyone wants (although it would be good to have a credit line being associated with any such). Backups are always a good idea. (Did you know that there was a complete copy of Diodorus' [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliotheca_historica 'Library of World History'], from ca. 1st century BC, in the library of Constantinople until it fell to the Turks in AD 1492? Alas, a copy of it did not make it to the West before the city fell, like so much else that has survived.)
	:::: Thank you for offering to do the actual uploading; I'm afraid I have neither the interest nor energy to learn all the ins and outs of Github. (After decades of use, I've got Mediawiki down pretty cold!) Anyway, there are probably more important projects for me to focus my now-limited energy on. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 05:14, 20 September 2023 (CEST)		:::: Thank you for offering to do the actual uploading; I'm afraid I have neither the interest nor energy to learn all the ins and outs of Github. (After decades of use, I've got Mediawiki down pretty cold!) Anyway, there are probably more important projects for me to focus my now-limited energy on. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 05:14, 20 September 2023 (CEST)

			:: It turns out the CGW Chaosnet code is already online; see the bottom of [[User:Jnc/Online‎]] for the link. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 02:54, 22 September 2023 (CEST)

Jnc: /* 'C Gateway' implementation */ Go for it!

2023-09-20T03:14:55Z

'C Gateway' implementation: Go for it!

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:14, 20 September 2023
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	:: As a temporary measure, I have put together [[User:Jnc/Online‎]], which is an index to most of the stuff I have made available. I'll improve it later.		:: As a temporary measure, I have put together [[User:Jnc/Online‎]], which is an index to most of the stuff I have made available. I'll improve it later.
	:: Dave Brigham had the uVAX version of the CGW up somewhere at Athena (he was doing all the main campus routers at one point), but I don't think he had the Chaos stuff. (I should find it and see.) If there is any interest, it would be trivial to put the entire original CGW up. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 15:39, 19 September 2023 (CEST)		:: Dave Brigham had the uVAX version of the CGW up somewhere at Athena (he was doing all the main campus routers at one point), but I don't think he had the Chaos stuff. (I should find it and see.) If there is any interest, it would be trivial to put the entire original CGW up. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 15:39, 19 September 2023 (CEST)

	::: I'm definitely interested, but it's more of an idle curiosity at this point.		::: I'm definitely interested, but it's more of an idle curiosity at this point.
	::: Say, now that you are on GitHub, would you mind putting copies there? Mostly for backup, more than anything else. And I can do the actual uploading if you prefer. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 17:04, 19 September 2023 (CEST)		::: Say, now that you are on GitHub, would you mind putting copies there? Mostly for backup, more than anything else. And I can do the actual uploading if you prefer. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 17:04, 19 September 2023 (CEST)

			:::: I have no objection to copies of anything I put online being put anywhere anyone wants (although it would be good to have a credit line being associated with any such). Backups are always a good idea. (Did you know that there was a complete copy of Diodorus' [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliotheca_historica 'Library of World History'], from ca. 1st century BC, in the library of Constantinople until it fell to the Turks in AD 1492? Alas, a copy of it did not make it to the West before the city fell, like so much else that has survived.)
			:::: Thank you for offering to do the actual uploading; I'm afraid I have neither the interest nor energy to learn all the ins and outs of Github. (After decades of use, I've got Mediawiki down pretty cold!) Anyway, there are probably more important projects for me to focus my now-limited energy on. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 05:14, 20 September 2023 (CEST)

Larsbrinkhoff: /* 'C Gateway' implementation */ Interested, but no urgency.

2023-09-19T15:05:03Z

'C Gateway' implementation: Interested, but no urgency.

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:05, 19 September 2023
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	:: As a temporary measure, I have put together [[User:Jnc/Online‎]], which is an index to most of the stuff I have made available. I'll improve it later.		:: As a temporary measure, I have put together [[User:Jnc/Online‎]], which is an index to most of the stuff I have made available. I'll improve it later.
	:: Dave Brigham had the uVAX version of the CGW up somewhere at Athena (he was doing all the main campus routers at one point), but I don't think he had the Chaos stuff. (I should find it and see.) If there is any interest, it would be trivial to put the entire original CGW up. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 15:39, 19 September 2023 (CEST)		:: Dave Brigham had the uVAX version of the CGW up somewhere at Athena (he was doing all the main campus routers at one point), but I don't think he had the Chaos stuff. (I should find it and see.) If there is any interest, it would be trivial to put the entire original CGW up. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 15:39, 19 September 2023 (CEST)
			::: I'm definitely interested, but it's more of an idle curiosity at this point.
			::: Say, now that you are on GitHub, would you mind putting copies there? Mostly for backup, more than anything else. And I can do the actual uploading if you prefer. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 17:04, 19 September 2023 (CEST)

Jnc: /* 'C Gateway' implementation */ Here's an index to most of the stuff I have made available

2023-09-19T13:39:20Z

'C Gateway' implementation: Here's an index to most of the stuff I have made available

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:39, 19 September 2023
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	* [http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/unix/net net] - MIT UNIX V6 networking code		* [http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/unix/net net] - MIT UNIX V6 networking code

	I suppose I could make the whole of /src, /sys, /lib, etc publicly available with little work; maybe I should do that, as an interim. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 16:28, 18 September 2023 (CEST)		I suppose I could make the whole of /src, /sys, /lib, etc publicly available with little work; maybe I should do that, as an interim to putting the entire non-personal parts of the file-system up.. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 16:28, 18 September 2023 (CEST)

	: Thanks. I had a vague memory of having seen C Gateway somewhere on your server, but maybe not. But pretty sure there was a "68000 DDT" or something similar. And this: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/mos/		: Thanks. I had a vague memory of having seen C Gateway somewhere on your server, but maybe not. But pretty sure there was a "68000 DDT" or something similar. And this: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/mos/
	: Getting MOS and C Gateway running on, say, SIMH might be interesting, but I don't have any spare cycles now. So no need for you to deal with that. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 20:09, 18 September 2023 (CEST)		: Getting MOS and C Gateway running on, say, SIMH might be interesting, but I don't have any spare cycles now. So no need for you to deal with that. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 20:09, 18 September 2023 (CEST)

			:: As a temporary measure, I have put together [[User:Jnc/Online‎]], which is an index to most of the stuff I have made available. I'll improve it later.
			:: Dave Brigham had the uVAX version of the CGW up somewhere at Athena (he was doing all the main campus routers at one point), but I don't think he had the Chaos stuff. (I should find it and see.) If there is any interest, it would be trivial to put the entire original CGW up. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 15:39, 19 September 2023 (CEST)

Larsbrinkhoff: /* 'C Gateway' implementation */ Still no demand for it.

2023-09-18T18:09:48Z

'C Gateway' implementation: Still no demand for it.

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:09, 18 September 2023
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	I suppose I could make the whole of /src, /sys, /lib, etc publicly available with little work; maybe I should do that, as an interim. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 16:28, 18 September 2023 (CEST)		I suppose I could make the whole of /src, /sys, /lib, etc publicly available with little work; maybe I should do that, as an interim. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 16:28, 18 September 2023 (CEST)

			: Thanks. I had a vague memory of having seen C Gateway somewhere on your server, but maybe not. But pretty sure there was a "68000 DDT" or something similar. And this: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/mos/
			: Getting MOS and C Gateway running on, say, SIMH might be interesting, but I don't have any spare cycles now. So no need for you to deal with that. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 20:09, 18 September 2023 (CEST)

Jnc: /* 'C Gateway' implementation */ new section

2023-09-18T14:28:05Z

'C Gateway' implementation: new section

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:28, 18 September 2023
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	::: I don't have the access needed to install Cite, so I can't help there.		::: I don't have the access needed to install Cite, so I can't help there.
	::: I don't really see this as a place to get enough detail to write code; that's what the 'Further reading/External links' sections are for. Adding that much detail would: i) take a lot of time, meaning that the many other things needing doing (check out [[Special:WantedPages]]) won't get done; ii) run the risk that mistakes would happen in the copying (like [https://gunkies.org/w/index.php?title=RP11_disk_controller&diff=prev&oldid=28183 this one], which someone was just nice enough to point out to me). I see this as the place to i) give a clear, concise overview of a topic, and ii) be an organized 'one stop shop' to easily get directed to original documentation that ''will'' give detail. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 21:53, 31 December 2022 (CET)		::: I don't really see this as a place to get enough detail to write code; that's what the 'Further reading/External links' sections are for. Adding that much detail would: i) take a lot of time, meaning that the many other things needing doing (check out [[Special:WantedPages]]) won't get done; ii) run the risk that mistakes would happen in the copying (like [https://gunkies.org/w/index.php?title=RP11_disk_controller&diff=prev&oldid=28183 this one], which someone was just nice enough to point out to me). I see this as the place to i) give a clear, concise overview of a topic, and ii) be an organized 'one stop shop' to easily get directed to original documentation that ''will'' give detail. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 21:53, 31 December 2022 (CET)

			== 'C Gateway' implementation ==

			I haven't made the C Gateway implementation available as there was no demand for it. It would be simple enough to do so; I have a full dump of the CSR machine, but all the stuff on it is mixed in with people's personal files (one classic example is TCP FTP: Liza Martin, who wrote it, along with a student (Greg Skinner, IIRC), both did all the work in their personal directories; when she left LCS, she never bothered to clean up and install it, so it's all still in their personal dirs), so I can't simply make the whole thing public. The other thing I need to do is do an index page for the stuff I have made available so far:

			* [http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/unix/teco TECO]
			* [http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/unix/emacs EMACS]
			* [http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/unix/net net] - MIT UNIX V6 networking code

			I suppose I could make the whole of /src, /sys, /lib, etc publicly available with little work; maybe I should do that, as an interim. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 16:28, 18 September 2023 (CEST)