Talk:MACRO-11 - Revision history

Larsbrinkhoff: /* Other PDP-10 cross assemblers */ More rambling from me.

2022-03-28T05:13:57Z

‎Other PDP-10 cross assemblers: More rambling from me.

Jnc: /* Other PDP-10 cross assemblers */ MOS was originally done under MACN11/LINK11

2022-03-27T23:24:01Z

‎Other PDP-10 cross assemblers: MOS was originally done under MACN11/LINK11

Larsbrinkhoff: /* Other PDP-10 cross assemblers */ ...

2022-03-27T20:21:10Z

‎Other PDP-10 cross assemblers: ...

Jnc: /* Other PDP-10 cross assemblers */ Maybe the UNIX V6 one?

2022-03-27T19:13:27Z

‎Other PDP-10 cross assemblers: Maybe the UNIX V6 one?

Larsbrinkhoff: /* MACN11 and LINK11 */ Fix brackets.

2022-03-27T18:45:24Z

‎MACN11 and LINK11: Fix brackets.

Larsbrinkhoff: /* MACN11 and LINK11 */ MACN11 evolved from MACX11?

2022-03-27T18:44:33Z

‎MACN11 and LINK11: MACN11 evolved from MACX11?

Larsbrinkhoff: /* Other PDP-10 cross assemblers */ Links to source or doc.

2022-03-27T18:43:34Z

‎Other PDP-10 cross assemblers: Links to source or doc.

Larsbrinkhoff: PALX, MACX11, MACY11, ... oh my.

2022-03-27T18:36:13Z

PALX, MACX11, MACY11, ... oh my.

Larsbrinkhoff: MACN11 and LINK11 needed.

2022-03-27T18:32:17Z

MACN11 and LINK11 needed.

New page

==MACN11 and LINK11==

I'm interested in MACN11 because I'm trying to help Stephen Casner revive his EPOS operating system he wrote at ISIS. The new link I provided has source code as well as a .DOC file which is close to [http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/mos/docs/macn11.txt the previous link]. I have checked that it assembles with MACRO and that a small test program generates a good listing, but I don't know if it has all the features Casner needs.

What's more, he also needs CMU's LINK11 with ISI extensions. It was written in the SAIL language. I found a LINK11.SAI file from SAIL (the lab), but it needs more files to build a complete program. Those other files I haven't found. If anyone has any information about these two tools I'd be grateful. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff|talk]]) 20:32, 27 March 2022 (CEST)

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	: I'd started on i) documenting the UNIX V6-based MACRO-11 toolchain (i.e. as a coherent system; there are already man pages for most of the pieces, but nothing 'high-level' which shows how all the pieces fit together), and ii) collecting all the bits (sources and working binary) into a blob which would contain all one would need to use and maintain it.		: I'd started on i) documenting the UNIX V6-based MACRO-11 toolchain (i.e. as a coherent system; there are already man pages for most of the pieces, but nothing 'high-level' which shows how all the pieces fit together), and ii) collecting all the bits (sources and working binary) into a blob which would contain all one would need to use and maintain it.
	: If LINK11 doesn't show up, it sounds like the choices will be a) re-write LINK11 from scratch (in what, I'd be curious - PDP-10 assembler of some sort, or a modern HLL, or... MDL? :-), or b) use the UNIX MACRO-11 toolchain. Not trying to say anyone ''has'' to use the latter - but it's there if needed/wanted. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 01:23, 28 March 2022 (CEST)		: If LINK11 doesn't show up, it sounds like the choices will be a) re-write LINK11 from scratch (in what, I'd be curious - PDP-10 assembler of some sort, or a modern HLL, or... MDL? :-), or b) use the UNIX MACRO-11 toolchain. Not trying to say anyone ''has'' to use the latter - but it's there if needed/wanted. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 01:23, 28 March 2022 (CEST)
		+
		+	:: Apparently ISI added many extensions to MACN11, so it wasn't exactly vanilla MACRO-11. A LINK11.SAI file did show up (see above), so c) fill in the missing pieces. I would also consider d) gobble up the listings from MACN11 with whatever modern (scripting) language is most convenient, and stitch them together. But this is a bit of a digression. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 07:13, 28 March 2022 (CEST)

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	:: I think it's more of a MACRO-11 superset. It was discussed before: https://elists.isoc.org/pipermail/internet-history/2019-February/004859.html, and maybe it's an option. I get the impression Casner would prefer the original tools if they can be found, so I'm posting this here in case (and elsewhere) in case something shows up. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 22:20, 27 March 2022 (CEST)		:: I think it's more of a MACRO-11 superset. It was discussed before: https://elists.isoc.org/pipermail/internet-history/2019-February/004859.html, and maybe it's an option. I get the impression Casner would prefer the original tools if they can be found, so I'm posting this here in case (and elsewhere) in case something shows up. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 22:20, 27 March 2022 (CEST)
		+
		+	: OK. Do note that MOS was originally done in the MACN11/LINK11 ecosystem (see [http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/mos/docs/tiunv4.lpt here] for details in the SRI MOS documentation), and we had to do some work to enhance the pre-existing MACRO-11 ecosystem under UNIX V6 to make MOS fully supported there (mostly to make the symbol table for the built-in PDP-11 DDT work; I don't think MACN11 had any features that our MACRO-11 didn't have). So I'd consider that that shows that the MACN11/LINK11 and UNIX V6 MACRO-11 ecosystems were pretty much equivalent.
		+	: I'd started on i) documenting the UNIX V6-based MACRO-11 toolchain (i.e. as a coherent system; there are already man pages for most of the pieces, but nothing 'high-level' which shows how all the pieces fit together), and ii) collecting all the bits (sources and working binary) into a blob which would contain all one would need to use and maintain it.
		+	: If LINK11 doesn't show up, it sounds like the choices will be a) re-write LINK11 from scratch (in what, I'd be curious - PDP-10 assembler of some sort, or a modern HLL, or... MDL? :-), or b) use the UNIX MACRO-11 toolchain. Not trying to say anyone ''has'' to use the latter - but it's there if needed/wanted. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 01:23, 28 March 2022 (CEST)

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	: I don't know about the PDP-10 hosted MACRO-11 toolchains. (I don't think I ever used any of them.) If ''I'' wanted to get anything written in MACRO-11 running, I'd use the UNIX V6-based MACRO-11 toolchain; it can do anything the PDP-10 based one can, and I know we have all the pieces. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 21:12, 27 March 2022 (CEST)		: I don't know about the PDP-10 hosted MACRO-11 toolchains. (I don't think I ever used any of them.) If ''I'' wanted to get anything written in MACRO-11 running, I'd use the UNIX V6-based MACRO-11 toolchain; it can do anything the PDP-10 based one can, and I know we have all the pieces. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 21:12, 27 March 2022 (CEST)
		+
		+	:: I think it's more of a MACRO-11 superset. It was discussed before: https://elists.isoc.org/pipermail/internet-history/2019-February/004859.html, and maybe it's an option. I get the impression Casner would prefer the original tools if they can be found, so I'm posting this here in case (and elsewhere) in case something shows up. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 22:20, 27 March 2022 (CEST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:13, 27 March 2022
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	There was a plethora of other PDP-10 hosted cross assemblers. [https://github.com/PDP-10/its/blob/master/src/sysen1/palx.280 PALX] was favored on ITS. I have seen [http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/decus_20tap5_198111/01/decus/20-0136/macx11.doc.html MACX11] and [http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/decus_20tap5_198111/01/decus/20-0136/macy11.mac.html MACY11]. I suppose since MACN11 was mentioned in the article, it would not be out of place to add the others too. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 20:36, 27 March 2022 (CEST)		There was a plethora of other PDP-10 hosted cross assemblers. [https://github.com/PDP-10/its/blob/master/src/sysen1/palx.280 PALX] was favored on ITS. I have seen [http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/decus_20tap5_198111/01/decus/20-0136/macx11.doc.html MACX11] and [http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/decus_20tap5_198111/01/decus/20-0136/macy11.mac.html MACY11]. I suppose since MACN11 was mentioned in the article, it would not be out of place to add the others too. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 20:36, 27 March 2022 (CEST)
		+
		+	: I don't know about the PDP-10 hosted MACRO-11 toolchains. (I don't think I ever used any of them.) If ''I'' wanted to get anything written in MACRO-11 running, I'd use the UNIX V6-based MACRO-11 toolchain; it can do anything the PDP-10 based one can, and I know we have all the pieces. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 21:12, 27 March 2022 (CEST)

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 What's more, he also needs CMU's LINK11 with ISI extensions.  It was written in the SAIL language.  I found a LINK11.SAI file from SAIL (the lab), but it needs more files to build a complete program.  Those other files I haven't found.  If anyone has any information about these two tools I'd be grateful. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff|talk]]) 20:32, 27 March 2022 (CEST)
-According to [https://www.saildart.org/MACN11.MAC[11,SYS] edit history] it looks like MACN11 evolved from MACX11.  Maybe "N" means new? [[User:Larsbrinkhoff|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff|talk]]) 20:44, 27 March 2022 (CEST)
+According to [https://www.saildart.org/MACN11.MAC%5B11,SYS%5D edit history] it looks like MACN11 evolved from MACX11.  Maybe "N" means new? [[User:Larsbrinkhoff|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff|talk]]) 20:44, 27 March 2022 (CEST)
 ==Other PDP-10 cross assemblers==
 There was a plethora of other PDP-10 hosted cross assemblers.  [https://github.com/PDP-10/its/blob/master/src/sysen1/palx.280 PALX] was favored on ITS.  I have seen [http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/decus_20tap5_198111/01/decus/20-0136/macx11.doc.html MACX11] and [http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/decus_20tap5_198111/01/decus/20-0136/macy11.mac.html MACY11].  I suppose since MACN11 was mentioned in the article, it would not be out of place to add the others too. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff|talk]]) 20:36, 27 March 2022 (CEST)

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	==Other PDP-10 cross assemblers==		==Other PDP-10 cross assemblers==

−	There was a plethora of other PDP-10 hosted cross assemblers. PALX was favored on ITS. I have seen MACX11 and MACY11. I suppose since MACN11 was mentioned in the article, it would not be out of place to add the others too. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 20:36, 27 March 2022 (CEST)	+	There was a plethora of other PDP-10 hosted cross assemblers. [https://github.com/PDP-10/its/blob/master/src/sysen1/palx.280 PALX] was favored on ITS. I have seen [http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/decus_20tap5_198111/01/decus/20-0136/macx11.doc.html MACX11] and [http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/decus_20tap5_198111/01/decus/20-0136/macy11.mac.html MACY11]. I suppose since MACN11 was mentioned in the article, it would not be out of place to add the others too. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 20:36, 27 March 2022 (CEST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:36, 27 March 2022
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	What's more, he also needs CMU's LINK11 with ISI extensions. It was written in the SAIL language. I found a LINK11.SAI file from SAIL (the lab), but it needs more files to build a complete program. Those other files I haven't found. If anyone has any information about these two tools I'd be grateful. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 20:32, 27 March 2022 (CEST)		What's more, he also needs CMU's LINK11 with ISI extensions. It was written in the SAIL language. I found a LINK11.SAI file from SAIL (the lab), but it needs more files to build a complete program. Those other files I haven't found. If anyone has any information about these two tools I'd be grateful. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 20:32, 27 March 2022 (CEST)
		+
		+	==Other PDP-10 cross assemblers==
		+
		+	There was a plethora of other PDP-10 hosted cross assemblers. PALX was favored on ITS. I have seen MACX11 and MACY11. I suppose since MACN11 was mentioned in the article, it would not be out of place to add the others too. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 20:36, 27 March 2022 (CEST)