Talk:Power 6/32 - Revision history

Jnc: /* "We can infer a lot" */ There is also operand type information

2024-12-26T21:59:43Z

‎"We can infer a lot": There is also operand type information

Jnc: /* More info coming */ The Google hits did not provide much

2024-12-24T07:51:15Z

‎More info coming: The Google hits did not provide much

Jnc: /* 'Indexed' addressing mode */ new section

2024-12-23T08:04:22Z

‎'Indexed' addressing mode: new section

Jnc: /* "We can infer a lot" */ I am not sure there is enough information there to make a Tahoe emulator

2024-12-22T16:59:26Z

‎"We can infer a lot": I am not sure there is enough information there to make a Tahoe emulator

Jnc: /* CPU or system? */ new section

2024-12-21T21:13:37Z

‎CPU or system?: new section

Jnc: /* "We can infer a lot" */ There does seem to be a complete toolchain

2024-12-20T17:02:59Z

‎"We can infer a lot": There does seem to be a complete toolchain

Larsbrinkhoff: /* "We can infer a lot" */ Also called toolchain.

2024-12-20T16:04:55Z

‎"We can infer a lot": Also called toolchain.

Larsbrinkhoff: /* "We can infer a lot" */ new section

2024-12-20T15:43:09Z

‎"We can infer a lot": new section

Jnc: /* About CCI */ We have a CCI article; move this there

2023-12-22T18:32:31Z

‎About CCI: We have a CCI article; move this there

Larsbrinkhoff: /* More info coming */ Possibly reverse engineerabe, possibly pointless.

2023-12-22T17:41:53Z

‎More info coming: Possibly reverse engineerabe, possibly pointless.

@@ Line 74: / Line 74: @@
 : Yes, if one has a simple C program ('cat.c', or something), and the binary for it, one can probably work out what the program does, and then look at the binary, and figure out what each of the instructions in it do. That's going to be a long slog, though. And the more obscure instructions, first one is going to have to search for a place that uses them, and only ''then'' can one try and work out what they do.
 :  I think I'd try and see if anyone has a Taho "architecture reference manual" stored away in the back of a closet first! [[User:Jnc|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc|talk]]) 17:59, 22 December 2024 (CET)
 == CPU or system? ==

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:51, 24 December 2024
Line 38:		Line 38:

	::: I checked with neozeed, but he was sworn to secrecy regarding the info he received. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]])		::: I checked with neozeed, but he was sworn to secrecy regarding the info he received. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]])
		+
		+	:::: I looked at a lot of the Google hits (most of them to 'Datamation' issues), but I didn't find anything of much use. I couldn't force myself to look at them all, but I doubt Datamation is going to carry much technical info. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 08:50, 24 December 2024 (CET)

	Pity. In [https://groups.google.com/g/alt.folklore.computers/c/ZFEisWjCGp8 this], I found little, but did find this:		Pity. In [https://groups.google.com/g/alt.folklore.computers/c/ZFEisWjCGp8 this], I found little, but did find this:

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:04, 23 December 2024
Line 87:		Line 87:

	The [https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=4.3BSD-Tahoe/usr/src/bin/as/as.tahoe/instrs 'instrs'] file references "the architecture reference manual (1981 edition)"; that might answer some of these questions. I have looked for that online, but it didn't turn up. Maybe we'll eventually get lucky, and someone who worked with these machines back when has a copy gathering dust at the back of a closet. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 22:13, 21 December 2024 (CET)		The [https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=4.3BSD-Tahoe/usr/src/bin/as/as.tahoe/instrs 'instrs'] file references "the architecture reference manual (1981 edition)"; that might answer some of these questions. I have looked for that online, but it didn't turn up. Maybe we'll eventually get lucky, and someone who worked with these machines back when has a copy gathering dust at the back of a closet. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 22:13, 21 December 2024 (CET)
		+
		+	== 'Indexed' addressing mode ==
		+
		+	So, I don't think I've seen anything about how the 'indexed' addressing mode worked. I just had an idea on that pop into my head.
		+
		+	I wonder if it causes the contents of Rx (in the 'index' argument) to be added to the address from the next operand? I get the impression (although I have yet to confirm it, by looking at the instruction decoding/printing code from the debugger(s)) that the 'indexed addressing mode' argument contains only a 4-bit register number, and nothing else. So how can that produce a useful address? How is it any different from plain old (Ry)? All of those questions are answered if it does what 'indexing' did on some other machines - add several things together to provide an address. The suggested syntax ("[Rn]") makes sense too.
		+
		+	The only hitch is that the instruction would have to include ''another'' argument; e.g. a two-argument instruction would have to have ''three'' arguments if one of the two starts off with an indexed argument. [https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=4.3BSD-Reno/src/bin/adb/adb.tahoe/opset.c opset.c] does seem to back this up; the code for handling an indexed argument:
		+
		+	<pre> adbprintf("[%s]", regname[r]);
		+	goto again;
		+	</pre>
		+	where the jump to 'again:' processes and prints another argument.
		+
		+	The only question left is whether one can have more than one of these at a time;i.e. something like '[R1][R2](R3)+'? The argument decoding/printing code would definitely allow it; but I guess we'd really need to get ahold of the architecture reference manual to be sure. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 09:04, 23 December 2024 (CET)

@@ Line 64: / Line 64: @@
 : There does seem to be a complete toolchain (much of it in the Reno release). If you go to the top-level page ([https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl here]), and enter 'tahoe', and do a search, you get a long list of stuff - including the PCC and assembler. I don't see a linker, but maybe there's nothing CPU-specific in that?
 : [https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=4.3BSD-Reno/src/share/doc/smm/01.setup/tahoe/ Installing and Operating 4.3BSD UNIX on the Tahoe] shows that it used a VERSAbus. [[User:Jnc|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc|talk]]) 18:02, 20 December 2024 (CET)
 == CPU or system? ==

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:13, 21 December 2024
Line 64:		Line 64:
	: There does seem to be a complete toolchain (much of it in the Reno release). If you go to the top-level page ([https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl here]), and enter 'tahoe', and do a search, you get a long list of stuff - including the PCC and assembler. I don't see a linker, but maybe there's nothing CPU-specific in that?		: There does seem to be a complete toolchain (much of it in the Reno release). If you go to the top-level page ([https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl here]), and enter 'tahoe', and do a search, you get a long list of stuff - including the PCC and assembler. I don't see a linker, but maybe there's nothing CPU-specific in that?
	: [https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=4.3BSD-Reno/src/share/doc/smm/01.setup/tahoe/ Installing and Operating 4.3BSD UNIX on the Tahoe] shows that it used a VERSAbus. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 18:02, 20 December 2024 (CET)		: [https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=4.3BSD-Reno/src/share/doc/smm/01.setup/tahoe/ Installing and Operating 4.3BSD UNIX on the Tahoe] shows that it used a VERSAbus. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 18:02, 20 December 2024 (CET)
		+
		+	== CPU or system? ==
		+
		+	Was the 'Power 6/32' just the CPU, or the whole system? In a related question, were the other companies with Tahoe machines (Harris, Unisys, etc) using boards from CCI (the CPU), or did they just license the design from CCI, and build their own physical CPUs? The CCI article mentioned [[Talk:Computer Consoles Incorporated\|here]] describes those 3 other companies as "OEMs" of CCI, which would seem to indicate they were using CPUs actually built by CCI. (Technically, I guess the 'Power 6/32' could be the name for the complete system, and the actual CPU boards out of it could be what the other vendors were using.)
		+
		+	Now, [https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=4.3BSD-Reno/src/share/doc/smm/01.setup/tahoe/0.t Installing and Operating 4.3BSD-tahoe UNIX on the Tahoe] talks of it running on the "CCI Power 6/32 and similar machines", and says it is built around the [[VERSAbus]]. The Tahoe distribution includes a file [https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=4.3BSD-Tahoe/HCX9LIST HCX9LIST], which seems to indicate that they did later have it running on the Harris HCX-9: "Changes made to the 4.3BSD-tahoe distribution to support HCX9". That first document says it "can be booted on a CCI Power 6/32, Harris HCX-7, Unisys (Sperry) 7000/40, or ICL Clan 7 with any disks supported on the VERSAbus disk controllers".
		+
		+	Here we have a bit of a mystery. The ads for the [https://virtuallyfun.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/harris_hcx5.jpg HCX-5] and [https://virtuallyfun.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Harris-HCX-9-print-ad.jpg HCX-9] speak of it using the [[VMEbus]]. The VERSAbus, although electrically very similar to the VMEbus, is physically incompatible: the former uses pin-in-shell connectors, the latter uses etch lands (see [[:File:VERSAbus memory card.jpg\|board image]]). The setup document, above, however, speaks of the use of "VERSAbus adaptor[s]", but no further details on them are given; I guess it's possible the machines with VMEbuses could have been using VERSAbus adaptors. (If they were using CCI-built CPUs, this seems likely - unless CCI built a later variant that plugged into a VMEbus.)
		+
		+	Depending on the answers to all the above, that brings up two other questions:
		+
		+	# - If the 'Power 6/32' is the whole system, what's the CPU called? Is 'Tahoe' the correct name for it? If not, what is it?
		+	# - How should we handle this - move the CPU-specific content to another page ([[Tahoe]] is currently just a redir to here, so could be used), and keep this page for the CCI-produced complete machine?
		+
		+	The [https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=4.3BSD-Tahoe/usr/src/bin/as/as.tahoe/instrs 'instrs'] file references "the architecture reference manual (1981 edition)"; that might answer some of these questions. I have looked for that online, but it didn't turn up. Maybe we'll eventually get lucky, and someone who worked with these machines back when has a copy gathering dust at the back of a closet. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 22:13, 21 December 2024 (CET)

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:02, 20 December 2024
Line 61:		Line 61:

	Now, clearly the end result would very much like running 4.3BSD on a VAX, so it's more hack value than actual utility. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 16:43, 20 December 2024 (CET)		Now, clearly the end result would very much like running 4.3BSD on a VAX, so it's more hack value than actual utility. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 16:43, 20 December 2024 (CET)
		+
		+	: There does seem to be a complete toolchain (much of it in the Reno release). If you go to the top-level page ([https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl here]), and enter 'tahoe', and do a search, you get a long list of stuff - including the PCC and assembler. I don't see a linker, but maybe there's nothing CPU-specific in that?
		+	: [https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=4.3BSD-Reno/src/share/doc/smm/01.setup/tahoe/ Installing and Operating 4.3BSD UNIX on the Tahoe] shows that it used a VERSAbus. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 18:02, 20 December 2024 (CET)

@@ Line 58: / Line 58: @@
 == "We can infer a lot" ==
-[[User:Jonathanjo]] wrote: "''We can infer a lot from the 4.3BSD-tahoe source file'' [...]"  I haven't checked, but I was assuming there is a complete chain of tooling.  And perhaps even binaries?  I kind of suppose there is enough information to make a Tahoe emulator running 4.3BSD.  Also, as Yoda points out, there is another source: Harris HCX/UX.  Unfortunately it can't be made public, but certainly a lot can be learned.
+[[User:Jonathanjo]] wrote: "''We can infer a lot from the 4.3BSD-tahoe source file'' [...]"  I haven't checked, but I was assuming there is a complete toolchain.  And perhaps even binaries?  I kind of suppose there is enough information to make a Tahoe emulator running 4.3BSD.  Also, as Yoda points out, there is another source: Harris HCX/UX.  Unfortunately it can't be made public, but certainly a lot can be learned.
 Now, clearly the end result would very much like running 4.3BSD on a VAX, so it's more hack value than actual utility. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff|talk]]) 16:43, 20 December 2024 (CET)

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:43, 20 December 2024
Line 55:		Line 55:

	:: I asked [[User:neozeed\|neozeed]], and he replied "''from what I know its def a super mini. the image looks like a full rack, and the stories I heard about their use is that they weren't exactly something you could take home in a car.''" [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 16:09, 22 December 2023 (CET)		:: I asked [[User:neozeed\|neozeed]], and he replied "''from what I know its def a super mini. the image looks like a full rack, and the stories I heard about their use is that they weren't exactly something you could take home in a car.''" [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 16:09, 22 December 2023 (CET)
		+
		+	== "We can infer a lot" ==
		+
		+	[[User:Jonathanjo]] wrote: "''We can infer a lot from the 4.3BSD-tahoe source file'' [...]" I haven't checked, but I was assuming there is a complete chain of tooling. And perhaps even binaries? I kind of suppose there is enough information to make a Tahoe emulator running 4.3BSD. Also, as Yoda points out, there is another source: Harris HCX/UX. Unfortunately it can't be made public, but certainly a lot can be learned.
		+
		+	Now, clearly the end result would very much like running 4.3BSD on a VAX, so it's more hack value than actual utility. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 16:43, 20 December 2024 (CET)

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:32, 22 December 2023
Line 55:		Line 55:

	:: I asked [[User:neozeed\|neozeed]], and he replied "''from what I know its def a super mini. the image looks like a full rack, and the stories I heard about their use is that they weren't exactly something you could take home in a car.''" [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 16:09, 22 December 2023 (CET)		:: I asked [[User:neozeed\|neozeed]], and he replied "''from what I know its def a super mini. the image looks like a full rack, and the stories I heard about their use is that they weren't exactly something you could take home in a car.''" [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 16:09, 22 December 2023 (CET)
−
−	~~== About CCI ==~~
−
−	While looking for info on the Tahoe, I found out about an article ("CCI's Cunningham") on CCI in the Dec 8, 1986 issue of Computerworld; [https://books.google.com/books?id=kRzuuIIkML8C&pg=PA2&source=gbs_toc&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false here]. It starts on page 29 (at the bottom), and continues on page 33-34. It doesn't say much, though. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 18:11, 22 December 2023 (CET)

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:41, 22 December 2023
Line 44:		Line 44:

	about the HCX-5. Pity none of those manuals appears to be extant! [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 18:21, 22 December 2023 (CET)		about the HCX-5. Pity none of those manuals appears to be extant! [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 18:21, 22 December 2023 (CET)
		+
		+	: I surmise it would be possible to reverse engineer the instruction set and other hardware from BSD source code and compiler toolchain. I also found a copy of Harri's HCX Unix which might be helpful in such an endeavor. At the end of the day, it would just be another also-ran running another Unix port same as all others, so I don't see much point. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 18:41, 22 December 2023 (CET)

	==Workstation?==		==Workstation?==