Talk:Taxonomy of DEC consoles - Revision history

Jnc: fmt errr

2024-01-05T13:23:24Z

fmt errr

Jnc: /* Panels */ What terms DEC used in machines that were controlled via a console terminal

2024-01-04T13:37:59Z

‎Panels: What terms DEC used in machines that were controlled via a console terminal

Jnc: /* Panels */ Some more data

2024-01-03T19:00:31Z

‎Panels: Some more data

Larsbrinkhoff: /* Panels */ Add to the confusion.

2024-01-03T15:30:31Z

‎Panels: Add to the confusion.

Jnc: /* Panels */ I called them 'front panels' without any serious thinking about it.

2024-01-03T15:15:16Z

‎Panels: I called them 'front panels' without any serious thinking about it.

Larsbrinkhoff: Console versus front panel, and more.

2024-01-03T07:39:59Z

Console versus front panel, and more.

Larsbrinkhoff: It's about visual design.

2023-08-11T06:09:23Z

It's about visual design.

Jnc: Comments

2023-08-11T00:41:56Z

Comments

New page

==Comments==

"PDP-11/45 style" - There's a 'remote console' option for the -11/70 (intended for DEC to dial into); not quite sure how it works.

"ODT style" - There are two very different front consoles for the PDP-11/04 and /34; the [[KY11-LA]], which is probably what you mean by 'ODT style' (there's a program in ROM, that runs on the main CPU, and interacts with the console terminal); and the [[KY11-LB]], which has the functionality of a real front panel (but has push-buttons and 7-segment displays). I think the -11/60 is the same as the -LB, but I'd have to check. I'm not sure which the -8/A's does..

"Dishonourable mentions" - The /23, /24, /73, /83, /84 etc are all the same as the PDP-11/03. That group are all kind of different from the 2020, although both use the console terminal; the former all run on the main CPU, using microcode, but the 2020 has a separate micro. The -11/44 is the same as the 2020 - as is the 750; the /780 is like the KL10 (the fact that the front end in the KL10 has a regular front console is irrelevant; you can't control the main CPU from it in any way). [[User:Jnc|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc|talk]]) 02:41, 11 August 2023 (CEST)

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 ::: When I woke up this morning, I decided to see what terminology DEC used for machines that were controlled via a console terminal (LSI-11, KS10, etc).
-::: Per the [http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1103/EK-LSI11-TM-002.pdf LSI-11, PDP-11/03 user's manual], section 2.3/2.4 (on pg. 16 of the PDF) and section 5.4.3 (on pg. 90) say "functions previously performed by a control panel"/"conventional control panel lights and switches" and both refer to "console ODT microcode".
+::: Per the [http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1103/EK-LSI11-TM-002.pdf LSI-11, PDP-11/03 user's manual], section 2.3/2.4 (on pg. 16 of the PDF) and section 5.4.3 (on pg. 90) say "functions previously performed by a control panel"/"conventional control panel lights and switches"; and both refer to "console ODT microcode".
-::: For the KS10, the [http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp10/KS10/EK-OKS10-TM-002_tech_Sep79.pdf KS10-Based DECSYSTEM-2020 Technical Manual] shows, in section 1.1 (pg. 10) a "console terminal"; section 1.2 (pg. 13) refers to a "console" as a subsystem containing a uprocessor on a board, with two serial lines (one for a console, one for a remote diagnostic link). There's more on the console in section 4.13 (pg. 75); that also refers to "other (user only) terminals" (which pretty well nails that latter term down). Chapter 5 (pg. 89) has more on the console, but . . . nowhere did I find anything about what was done before. This makes sense; the predecessor KL10 did not have a front panel either, so there was no mental model change was needed, going to the FS10.
+::: For the KS10, the [http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp10/KS10/EK-OKS10-TM-002_tech_Sep79.pdf KS10-Based DECSYSTEM-2020 Technical Manual] shows, in section 1.1 (pg. 10) a "console terminal"; section 1.2 (pg. 13) refers to a "console" as a subsystem containing a μprocessor on a board, with two serial lines (one for a console, one for a remote diagnostic link). There's more on the console in section 4.13 (pg. 75); that also refers to "other (user only) terminals" (which pretty well nails that latter term down). Chapter 5 (pg. 89) has more on the console, but . . . nowhere did I find anything about what was done before. This makes sense; the predecessor KL10 did not have a front panel either, so there was no mental model change was needed, going to the FS10.
-:: So [[Control panel]] is, I reckon, a definite possibility for an alternative name. [[User:Jnc|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc|talk]]) 14:37, 4 January 2024 (CET)
+::: So [[Control panel]] is, I reckon, a definite possibility for an alternative name. [[User:Jnc|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc|talk]]) 14:37, 4 January 2024 (CET)

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	::: Your comment about "at the AI lab" brings up another axis; not only did terms differ between families (-11/-10), and also between different entities (MIT, SAIL, etc), but could differ between groups in the same building! In LCS, I don't recall us using the term "console" for a 'ordinary' terminal - that was always "terminal". "Console" was reserved for ''the'' console of a computer. You can see that in the CSR machine's help file for [http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/unix/help/boot booting].		::: Your comment about "at the AI lab" brings up another axis; not only did terms differ between families (-11/-10), and also between different entities (MIT, SAIL, etc), but could differ between groups in the same building! In LCS, I don't recall us using the term "console" for a 'ordinary' terminal - that was always "terminal". "Console" was reserved for ''the'' console of a computer. You can see that in the CSR machine's help file for [http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/unix/help/boot booting].
	::: Well, I am not sure that really helped you! :-) [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 19:59, 3 January 2024 (CET)		::: Well, I am not sure that really helped you! :-) [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 19:59, 3 January 2024 (CET)
		+
		+	::: When I woke up this morning, I decided to see what terminology DEC used for machines that were controlled via a console terminal (LSI-11, KS10, etc).
		+	::: Per the [http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1103/EK-LSI11-TM-002.pdf LSI-11, PDP-11/03 user's manual], section 2.3/2.4 (on pg. 16 of the PDF) and section 5.4.3 (on pg. 90) say "functions previously performed by a control panel"/"conventional control panel lights and switches" and both refer to "console ODT microcode".
		+	::: For the KS10, the [http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp10/KS10/EK-OKS10-TM-002_tech_Sep79.pdf KS10-Based DECSYSTEM-2020 Technical Manual] shows, in section 1.1 (pg. 10) a "console terminal"; section 1.2 (pg. 13) refers to a "console" as a subsystem containing a uprocessor on a board, with two serial lines (one for a console, one for a remote diagnostic link). There's more on the console in section 4.13 (pg. 75); that also refers to "other (user only) terminals" (which pretty well nails that latter term down). Chapter 5 (pg. 89) has more on the console, but . . . nowhere did I find anything about what was done before. This makes sense; the predecessor KL10 did not have a front panel either, so there was no mental model change was needed, going to the FS10.
		+	:: So [[Control panel]] is, I reckon, a definite possibility for an alternative name. [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 14:37, 4 January 2024 (CET)

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	:: I don't necessarily want it changed. I mostly took the opportunity to start a discussion about the terms. Regarding MIT use of 'console', I'd argue that the console you mentioned could be referred to as "the teletype attached to the operator console". At least at the AI lab, "console" also meant roughly "user station", e.g. "GE console" and "Knight TV console". In this sense TTY 0 is ''the'' console. There is also "Spacewar console", e.g. joystick in modern terms. I take this to mean console in a wide sense is "device used to operate a machine".		:: I don't necessarily want it changed. I mostly took the opportunity to start a discussion about the terms. Regarding MIT use of 'console', I'd argue that the console you mentioned could be referred to as "the teletype attached to the operator console". At least at the AI lab, "console" also meant roughly "user station", e.g. "GE console" and "Knight TV console". In this sense TTY 0 is ''the'' console. There is also "Spacewar console", e.g. joystick in modern terms. I take this to mean console in a wide sense is "device used to operate a machine".
	:: Well, despite myself, this is only making things more confused, not less as I was hoping. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 16:30, 3 January 2024 (CET)		:: Well, despite myself, this is only making things more confused, not less as I was hoping. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 16:30, 3 January 2024 (CET)
		+
		+	::: Yeah, the names for these things is a deep tarpit.
		+	::: I amused myself by looking at the [https://bitsavers.org/pdf/honeywell/large_systems/multics/AM81-04_maintPrcds_Nov86.pdf Multics System Maintenance Procedures Manual]; it defines "system console" as my definition - 'that special terminal that the machine knows about'. They don't have a single 'front panel', because Multics systems contain several kinds of boxes that have front panels: "active" units (CPUs, "Input/Output Multiplexers" - I/O controllers), and "passive" units ("System Control Units" - memories). All have several different front panels: "Maintenance Panels", "Test Panels", and "Display Panels". You can see them in that [[:File:CISLMultics.jpg\|picture of the CISL system]].
		+	::: IBM seems to have used 'Console' initially; e.g. on the [http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/1401/A24-1401-1_1401_System_Summary_Sep64.pdf 1401] (pg. 19), [http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/1620/A26-5718-0_IBM_1620_System_Summary.pdf 1620] (pg. 9), [https://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/7094/A22-6703-4_7094_PoO_Oct66.pdf 7094] (pg. 140), but switched to 'Control Panel' later, on the 360: [https://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/360/operatingGuide/C20-1635-2_Model_40_Operating_Techniques.pdf Model 40] (pg. 3), [https://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/360/operatingGuide/A22-6908-0_360_50_Operating_Procedures_1966.pdf Model 50] (pg. 5)
		+	::: Your comment about "at the AI lab" brings up another axis; not only did terms differ between families (-11/-10), and also between different entities (MIT, SAIL, etc), but could differ between groups in the same building! In LCS, I don't recall us using the term "console" for a 'ordinary' terminal - that was always "terminal". "Console" was reserved for ''the'' console of a computer. You can see that in the CSR machine's help file for [http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/unix/help/boot booting].
		+	::: Well, I am not sure that really helped you! :-) [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 19:59, 3 January 2024 (CET)

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	: 'Indicator panel' was the official DEC name for the light panels at the top of cabinets; those went away at about the same time as lights/switches consoles did.		: 'Indicator panel' was the official DEC name for the light panels at the top of cabinets; those went away at about the same time as lights/switches consoles did.
	: I don't have any emotional commitment to 'front panel'; I'll cheerfully change to something else if you come up with something better! :-) [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 16:14, 3 January 2024 (CET)		: I don't have any emotional commitment to 'front panel'; I'll cheerfully change to something else if you come up with something better! :-) [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 16:14, 3 January 2024 (CET)
		+
		+	:: I don't necessarily want it changed. I mostly took the opportunity to start a discussion about the terms. Regarding MIT use of 'console', I'd argue that the console you mentioned could be referred to as "the teletype attached to the operator console". At least at the AI lab, "console" also meant roughly "user station", e.g. "GE console" and "Knight TV console". In this sense TTY 0 is ''the'' console. There is also "Spacewar console", e.g. joystick in modern terms. I take this to mean console in a wide sense is "device used to operate a machine".
		+	:: Well, despite myself, this is only making things more confused, not less as I was hoping. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 16:30, 3 January 2024 (CET)

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	These are just some vague impressions of mine, so I'd appreciate a more thorough treatment. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 08:39, 3 January 2024 (CET)		These are just some vague impressions of mine, so I'd appreciate a more thorough treatment. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 08:39, 3 January 2024 (CET)
		+
		+	: That change wasn't the result of any deep thinking on my part; I was just getting rid of a redirect.
		+	: As for [[front panel]], as a term; I didn't use the term 'console' for that article because, at MIT at least, 'console' usually referred to the terminal which was special-cased in the hardware, and did all sorts of magic things, like i) the kind of things real front panels used to do (e.g. start and stop the machine; on KS10's and QBUS PDP-11's); ii) used by the OS to print logging messages. You can find examples of that in [https://github.com/PDP-10/its-vault/blob/master/files/sysdoc/its.bugs ITS BUGS] (worth reading for amusement) and [https://github.com/PDP-10/its-vault/blob/master/files/_info_/shut.down SHUT DOWN].
		+	: I don't recall having a specific term for the control panel, which ''everyone'' (and everywhere) invariably used; 'front panel' just seemed like the best term - again, without ''any'' thinking (serious or otherwise) about it.
		+	: Note that the DEC term was often 'Programmer's Console' on the PDP-11 (e.g. [[KY11-A Programmer's Console]]); on the KA10 and KI10 the DEC term was 'console operator panel' (see PDF pg. 405 [KI10] and 419 [KA10] of the [https://bitsavers.org/www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/pdf/DEC-10-XSRMA-A-xxD%20DECsystem10%20System%20Reference%20Manual.pdf decsystem-10 System Reference Manual]). (I'm too lazy/busy to look up the GE/Honeywell and IBM terms, although the manuals are accessible; also the various PDP-8's, etc.) But 'console' is already sort of unusable (see above).
		+	: 'Indicator panel' was the official DEC name for the light panels at the top of cabinets; those went away at about the same time as lights/switches consoles did.
		+	: I don't have any emotional commitment to 'front panel'; I'll cheerfully change to something else if you come up with something better! :-) [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 16:14, 3 January 2024 (CET)

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	: My intent was to classify the visual design. Probably there is a better page title to reflect this, but in any case it's not an overly serious or technical article. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 08:08, 11 August 2023 (CEST)		: My intent was to classify the visual design. Probably there is a better page title to reflect this, but in any case it's not an overly serious or technical article. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 08:08, 11 August 2023 (CEST)
		+
		+	==Panels==
		+
		+	I saw the change from "console panel" to "front panel". Maybe the various terms merit an article of its own. In my experience the computer "console" and its panel(s) is for operating the computer, in particular for booting, debugging etc. But I have also seen console used in a wider sense as any user station, e.g. a teletype or video terminal.
		+
		+	As for "front panel", isn't that any type of panel facing front? So e.g. the top panels on the KA10 processor, or controllers and memories. "Indicator panel" is essentially the same.
		+
		+	There's also "face plate"; maybe just about any forward facing panel.
		+
		+	These are just some vague impressions of mine, so I'd appreciate a more thorough treatment. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 08:39, 3 January 2024 (CET)

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	"Dishonourable mentions" - The /23, /24, /73, /83, /84 etc are all the same as the PDP-11/03. That group are all kind of different from the 2020, although both use the console terminal; the former all run on the main CPU, using microcode, but the 2020 has a separate micro. The -11/44 is the same as the 2020 - as is the 750; the /780 is like the KL10 (the fact that the front end in the KL10 has a regular front console is irrelevant; you can't control the main CPU from it in any way). [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 02:41, 11 August 2023 (CEST)		"Dishonourable mentions" - The /23, /24, /73, /83, /84 etc are all the same as the PDP-11/03. That group are all kind of different from the 2020, although both use the console terminal; the former all run on the main CPU, using microcode, but the 2020 has a separate micro. The -11/44 is the same as the 2020 - as is the 750; the /780 is like the KL10 (the fact that the front end in the KL10 has a regular front console is irrelevant; you can't control the main CPU from it in any way). [[User:Jnc\|Jnc]] ([[User talk:Jnc\|talk]]) 02:41, 11 August 2023 (CEST)
		+
		+	: My intent was to classify the visual design. Probably there is a better page title to reflect this, but in any case it's not an overly serious or technical article. [[User:Larsbrinkhoff\|Larsbrinkhoff]] ([[User talk:Larsbrinkhoff\|talk]]) 08:08, 11 August 2023 (CEST)